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View Full Version : Froud's Warning On Malicious Fae vs. Doreen Virtue's wishy washy slaphappy opinion


LadyOfTheTrees
12-05-13, 05:22 PM
From Good Fairies/Bad Fairies, from Chapter "Introduction," page 5, article title: The Dark Side of Faery,

"Faeries, like humans, are bound to nature and thus reflect its capacity for destruction as well as creation. Having studied faeries for many years now, I've learned that the dark side of these creatures must never be ignored - for it is extremely powerful, with the raw power of natural force.

Numerous indeed are the folktales that remind us of the dangers of Faery and of the many treacherous creatures the unwary traveler might encounter in that realm. The lamia is a seductive faery woman who gives men pleasure beyond their wildest dreams, but she sucks the life's vitality and leaves an empty husk behind. The lovely nixies who dwell in rivers may be enchanting to look upon, but humans who spy on nixies at play are pulled into the water and drowned. The wail of the banshee foretells a death. Jack-in-Irons assaults travelers on lonely roads; and the Red-caps earned their name by dyeing their hats in human blood. At certain times of the year (such as All Hallow's Eve) it is wise to stay safely indoors, for the Faery Host goes riding across the land hunting for souls. Scottish legends have a name for this dark side of Faery: they call it the Unseelie Court - and woe to any woman or man who underestimates its dangers.

Where I live, on Dartmoor, we are haunted by apparitions of sinister black dogs - a typical faery form. (Arthur Conan Doyle's Hound of the Baskervilles was written near here and is based on one of these dark apparitions). One stormy night a man was walking from Widecombe, high up on the moor, back home to my village. Suddenly the Wild Hunt was upon him. Jet-black hounds with glowing eyes were baying all around him, barely under the control of the weird Huntsman who led them. The man boldly asked what it was they hunted. Wordlessly, the Huntsman threw him a small bundle, gathered his dogs, and rode away. The man hurried across the moor, clutching the bundle. Only in the candlelight of his home could he see that he held the dead body of his own child.

The faeries take great umbrage at interruptions and interferences. There are many accounts of men and women punished for interrupting faery revels, chopping down faery bushes and trees, or otherwise giving offense. A farmer in Cornwall decided to steal the stone basin from the local pisky's well, with the intention of turning it into a nice new water trough for his pigs. He chained the stone to two oxen and pulled it to the top of a steep hill - whereupon the stone broke free of the chains, rolled downhill, made a sharp turn left, and settled back into its place. One of the oxen died on the spot and the hapless farmer was struck lame.

Like any supernatural encounter, meeting a faery - even one who is gentle and benign - is never a comfortable experience. But to meet one of the dark creatures from the shadowed depths of the faery Otherworld can be frightening indeed. As you travel into the faeries' domain, it is best to be wary of things unseen and the music that lures you into the woods. And always treat faeries with courtesy. You don't want to make them angry."

And now we read Doreen's ridiculous opinion... From Fairies 101, Chapter 10, "Connecting With The Fairies" page 101,

"Since fairies are everywhere, you can connect with them any time. However, it's easiest to hear and see the fairies where they congregate outside in nature, or wherever there are lots of plants and animals [Froud disputes this saying Fae are on an interdimensional plane that transcends all environments, indoor or outdoor], the more fairies there are, the easier they are to hear and see.

The fairies are as real as you are, and they'd love to help you. To connect with them, first decide on a question or request to ask. Direct this question to them either aloud or silently. The fairies hear every request from every being, even those who are new to working with the elementals.

Before the fairies can reply to or help you, they'll first need to know more about your relationship to the environment and animals. They can access this information instantaneously from the energy field surrounding your body.

The fairies aren't judging you so much as they're assessing how Earth-friendly your attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors are. If they deem you need improvements in this area, the fairies will give you assignments. For instance, you may receive gut feelings to recycle rubbish, or to pick up garbage from a nature path. If you follow these intuitive callings, the fairies will begin helping you and working with you.

As long as you do your best to display kindness toward the environment and animals, the fairies will do whatever they can to help you. [Yeah, right...]. And remember that if the fairies ask you to purchase Earth-friendly cleaning supplies, you can ask them to help you pay for them!

You can feel the fairies' presence around plants and animals. Fairies always elicit feeling of excitement, playfulness, and high energy. They're happy, fiery beings."

Conclusion: Froud is in the correct here, in my opinion. Doreen however, since having met and worked with her in person and having determined that I truly do not think she is a liar or a fraud, is then therefore clearing interacting with something different than Froud. My opinion is that Doreen is in contact with nature angels, which are one of the lowest ranking angels in the angelological hierarchy, not true Fae Folk. Lord knows I'd never recommend this book to clients, students or friends! I realized something the other night after reading an article by Froud on faery music... Several times, well, many times at night I hear these drum circles and for the longest time, I figured it was one of the frat extension houses having some sort of marijuana fueled drum circle stoner party, however, I followed the sound and tried to find the location at least 20 times now and could never find it... I think it might be Fae music... This is all so interesting to me.

LadyOfTheTrees
12-05-13, 05:47 PM
Froud addresses Doreen's attitude here, "Some people attracted to Faeryland are blinded by a common glamour: they are willing to see only a sweet and magic-sparkly view of the faeries, missing the deeper, darker profound power of all things fey. Do not be led astray." --Good Faeries/Bad Faeries, page 6, chapter "Introduction" article, "Faery Glamour"

petrus4
12-05-13, 08:28 PM
Doreen makes the assumption that there are no evil Fae. Most of my reading on the subject, has implied that the majority of Fae are probably malevolent, but that does not mean that they all are.

Lightdragon
12-05-13, 09:16 PM
Doreen makes the assumption that there are no evil Fae. sounds like a fluffy-bunny .


Most of my reading on the subject, has implied that the majority of Fae are probably malevolent, but that does not mean that they all are. I didn't read up enough to make that statement. but I know that they are not all cute and cuddly and if you decide to work with them they can be very petty. and they are far from being weak.

what I do know is that faerie logic is perverse and not to what humanity can understand.

Bara Mortath
12-06-13, 01:02 AM
I wouldn't say "malevolent" so much as strange, unpredictable, and largely indifferent.

They have their own reasons for doing what they do but those are not human reasons and they are generally not interested in explaining them.

Katharine
12-06-13, 06:31 AM
I wouldn't say malevolent either. Petrus I know you know what blue and orange morality is. The fae are a perfect example. They cannot be judged as good and evil based on human concepts of morality because their motivations are beyond human comprehension.

Wise man said, even if a lion could speak you would not understand it, because the things it would speak about would mean nothing to you.

I believe Froud is talking to the same faeries I do.

I work mostly with the unseelie. They are not as beautiful as the seelie court; in the standard way of interpreting beauty.

feranaja
12-06-13, 07:02 AM
I definitely agree that people who dabble in seership will often encounter certain types of spirits that ARE pleasant and helpful - plant devas, perhaps, or, as I understand them, local spirits - and mistake these for the Fae. Around here, what I've found anyway, is through regular meditation, ritual practise, feeding the locals(I have two shrines on the property and three out in the wild) and my work with the plant and animal beings here, I feel (this is gonna sound really fluffy) surrounded by protection and support. Cultivation of relationship with the Otherworld can indeed be a beautiful and transformative experience - BUT...but, even when one has done so, there has to be an awareness that all is not bunnies and light on the Other side, and there are dangers. One serious concern for anyone who establishes meaningful relationship with wild spirits and devas is the malevolent ones can assume their shape and trick you. I've had this happen; my instinct for self preservation is strong and I have set up specific questions/greetings with all my spirit-friends; when I had a strong physical warning (kick in the solar plexus) once in an encounter with what I thought was a friendly spirit, I asked a question and began internally building my Inner Flame outwards to encompass me as a shield would...the Imposter screeched like a frightened fox, and evaporated before my eyes.
I greet all my allies with certain words and gestures, nowadays.
I've also gone into the woods and had a specific tree literally say to me " on your guard, earthwalker" or similar words. I trust that tree deeply, even more so given he presides over a part of the woods that did NOT want me there, that has been greatly damaged by human actions; it took literally years of prayer, offering, tests - and returning there to ask humbly for teaching, before he and the rest accepted me as different form the rapists and exploiters. His gift of warning that day was so beautiful to me (and the woods were, literally, grey with some foul energy, Danny whined the whole way, but we would not be intimidated).

So for me, the value of establishing strong relationship cannot be underestimated (with the friendly, helpful, or even simply neutral beings). Now all of these beings, good bad and neutral, are everywhere - as long as you can effectively open your inner vision, stay grounded and safe, and close down once you are done, generally you're safe. But deeper levels, encountered, say, in trance or dream, or under specific influences (mugwort does it for me) or aggressive seeking of The Fae can be very dangerous. My personal advice is to build strong relationships with the locals who WILL appreciate and warn/protect you - and it can take many years of consistent offering and time before that happens - but the potential to develop a veritable army of friends is strong.

Much as I prefer Froud, he is still a popular writer, and I recommend looking a little deeper into the literature on the good Folk, and asking yourself why you want to contact them in the first place. Life is complicated enough; I will walk with Raven, Deer, Maple, Poplar, Grandfather Oak, Yarrow and all the Spirits of the wild here - including the ones I don't really understand and are not associated with the plant or animal worlds - before I muck about with the Fae. I have one strong faerie contact here and it came to ME, as I have been working Avalonian and Druidic magic for some time. But She is very special. I am extremely wary with the rest...I feed them, but I ask for NOTHING! and I never, ever follow that music when it comes. I may stand and listen, but I always - always - walk away.

Katharine
12-06-13, 07:35 AM
I have followed the fae... Or, more accurately, tracked them down without an invitation. It was not a friendly or comfortable place. I very strongly felt some of them wanted to hurt me. I didn't stay long.

My standard for identifying spirits is simply to ask their name. They don't lie when I do that, ever. Is that only me, or does that work for others? I've had a few occasions where something tried to pretend to be someone I knew. And others where it was my own subconscious fooling around. Just asking works in either case.

SunSister
12-06-13, 02:46 PM
I wouldn't call them malevolent either.. just operating by a completely different set of standards, rules, and ideas. :) They're petty, powerful, con-artists extraordinaire, and on the hunt for their own pleasure/enjoyment more than anything else. They never play by our rules, and making any sort of 'deal' with them means you have to waterproof it so they can't run with a loophole you missed. When something catches their fancy, they run with it.. and the gods be good to you if you get in their way.

I once had some Fae come up to me in what I assume was curiosity, but I have never sought them out on purpose. There was a sense of, I don't know, mutual amusement during the encounter? I was in their place more or less by accident, but in a respectful and joyful state of mind at the time. I'm one of those people, you know, I just broadcast energy when I feel good or am actively working with energy and get a lot of energies come at me in return for it. Their energy's been one of the most foreign I've felt, and yet one of those closest to/interwoven with nature at the same time. I think Froud is very correct when he states that they're on an interdimensional plane.

Katharine
12-06-13, 04:48 PM
I find the fae familiar and comfortable, personally; particularly, as I've said, the unseelie. I even spoke to Queen Maeb a few times. Entering an actual court and asking to speak to the leader of the local troop may not have been my brightest moment, but I've had good luck otherwise.

But then, I'm insane, so what else is new?

feranaja
12-06-13, 05:42 PM
rofl, Katharine. We`re all a little batty here, in a good way I think.
you know one of my cats is fae, and I fervently believe that..perhaps I`m not all there either.

Katharine
12-06-13, 08:56 PM
At least I'm in good company. Let's have a tea party.

LadyOfTheTrees
12-06-13, 09:05 PM
I have followed the fae... Or, more accurately, tracked them down without an invitation. It was not a friendly or comfortable place. I very strongly felt some of them wanted to hurt me. I didn't stay long.

My standard for identifying spirits is simply to ask their name. They don't lie when I do that, ever. Is that only me, or does that work for others? I've had a few occasions where something tried to pretend to be someone I knew. And others where it was my own subconscious fooling around. Just asking works in either case.

I was taught, in being raised as a Christian, that in order to deal with a demon, you must get it to tell you its name. In the Bible, Christ asks a demon-possessed man's demon what its name is and they reply, "Legion, for we are many." It's viewed as an example of Christ's spiritual power that they responded honestly and instantly to him instead of playing head games - as they're often cited as doing with Priests in exorcism accounts. If you don't know the rest of the story, they then said, "We know who you are. Are you here to torture us? Let us go into these pigs instead..." Christ gives them permission and they enter the pigs and the pigs then burst through their gate and drown themselves in the river. There is more hidden meaning here as well... The pigs were owned by a Jewish man - they were considered unclean at the time in the Jewish Old Covenant. So Christ not only healed the one man, but punished the other for breaking Jewish law. Anyway, the point is, the name is very important in dealing with negative spirits in many religions and spiritual paths and regardless of whichever one you might choose to believe in this from, I personally believe it to be true, myself... That was the first account of the importance of name that I ever learned though as my parents were quite devout. I believe it transcends religion or creed.

LadyOfTheTrees
12-06-13, 09:08 PM
I have fae that help me with my orchids. I built them furniture and they get cream and pastries left out for them, especially if something happens like an accidental overwatering or overfeeding. I have witnessed them recover the blooms in a less than 24 hour period in exchange for shiny objects, tiny furniture and cream or butter. I might start sleeping with cast iron in my bed though, to keep the "bad" ones away... I guess I'm in the nuthouse now, too.

DrumWolf
12-06-13, 09:24 PM
I was taught, in being raised as a Christian, that in order to deal with a demon, you must get it to tell you its name. In the Bible, Christ asks a demon-possessed man's demon what its name is and they reply, "Legion, for we are many." It's viewed as an example of Christ's spiritual power that they responded honestly and instantly to him instead of playing head games - as they're often cited as doing with Priests in exorcism accounts. If you don't know the rest of the story, they then said, "We know who you are. Are you here to torture us? Let us go into these pigs instead..." Christ gives them permission and they enter the pigs and the pigs then burst through their gate and drown themselves in the river.
Never understood this part. What did the pigs do to deserve this? Why did the "all loving" Christ (so we're told) allow this to happen?

Katharine
12-06-13, 09:48 PM
Never understood this part. What did the pigs do to deserve this? Why did the "all loving" Christ (so we're told) allow this to happen?

Abrahamic theology does not acknowledge the sanctity of animals. It does not necessarily forbid animal abuse. Only humans have souls, remember?

LadyOfTheTrees
12-06-13, 11:10 PM
Animal abuse is extremely forbidden. They had dietary restrictions that were for physical cleanliness. In the days when they implemented laws on not eating anything with paws, one foot (shellfish), bottom feeding fish, by-products, and pigs, it was mostly for the reasons of not catching diseases. Theologically, God had not sent his son to die yet, so in order to appease "Him," they had to make burnt offerings, which were slaughtered animals. Most ancient Pagan societies did this too though. There are plenty of verses that speak of the sacredness of animals, so I don't think that it was a disrespect type thing. When Christ sent the demons into the pigs, it was to show that at that time, they could only be "saved" by good works, illustrating the need for "salvation through grace." I hope this helps explain, some... I've spent my whole life trying to work out these kinks, lol. I hairsplit everything.

LadyOfTheTrees
12-06-13, 11:12 PM
Oh wait, Christ didn't kill the pigs! I forgot to add, the demons killed the pigs.

Katharine
12-07-13, 12:17 AM
Christ inflicted the demons on the pigs, so he might as well have killed them. People would have objected had he sent the demons from one person to another, but this is okay because they're JUST pigs, and therefore expendable.

ffetcher
12-07-13, 05:41 AM
Gdtting back to the fae for a minute, although my example is kind of related to the pigs. Where I was brought up, the fae aren't particularly good or malevolent, they're just... ...other. I was trying to come up with an example whilst soaking in the bath and I think I have a rough analogy.

Imagine a race-horse trainer with a horse the owner wants trained to run over jumps. Clearly the trainer wants the horse to have a good life, because then it might win some races, and the trainer might make some money. The horse likes the good life, and therefore jumps over fences in return. The horse probably isn't aware that if it makes a bad mistake it may be destroyed, but the owner and trainer see nothing wrong in doing so - it's just a part of what they do. If it survives, at the end of its racing career, the horse may be put out to stud, or may be destroyed. Again, no-one in the racing community sees a moral problem with that.

It's not an exact analogy with what I was taught, but it's close.

blessings
ffetcher

Katharine
12-07-13, 03:21 PM
Congratulations, you are now a horse.

LadyOfTheTrees
12-07-13, 05:39 PM
That made sense, ffetcher. Actually, the way I've come to understand their thinking, or rather, to understand how confusing their thinking is, is through Froud's Faeries' Oracle. These cards are like no oracle deck or tarot I've ever seen or used because you can't interpret them with human archetypes or Jungian/Freudian psychology. You have to look up the faery, and then you'll get Jessica Macbeth's article on the card that explains the particular faery, it's backwards way of thinking/acting, and anything it may have channeled to her. The art was done by Froud. So far, and I've been successfully, or rather, I'd say, fluently interpreting cards for 13 years now and I've been working with this deck daily and am continuously stumped. If I find a good card description/article/meaning about a particular fae's irrational thinking (as it seems irrational to us), I will quote and post it.

LadyOfTheTrees
12-07-13, 05:56 PM
Here's one channeling from the guidebook for the oracle that Jessica Macbeth received regarding the numbers on the cards, "You can use numbers, if you like, as long as you remember to tell them that the numbers don't mean anything at all - except when they do." And here for Card 26, "O! That Gnome", you get a good explanation of the confusedness... This is from the hardback that matches the deck, and also from Froud's original Faeries book, and also with quotes from Jessica Macbeth's students. I meshed it altogether - if you want the specifics, PM me. "He comes to us wearing our own faces to fool us into thinking that his ideas are our own, which he finds amusing and hilarious. He brings creative chaos into our lives. He helps us break down old habits by showing us how silly they are. He encourages us to fall on our faces, and may even literally trip us into doing so in that we get a different point of view, looking up past our mud-smeared noses. He helps us get ourselves into situations in which we discover gifts we never knew we had - often because there is no other way out of the mess we got ourselves into. As Brian mentions, the Gnome is unreliable and sometimes encourages drunkenness (for his own entertainment of watching us make fools of ourselves). He never does as we expect, but our expectations are the problem, not his, he says to me to tell you. As for truth, he says to me, in vino veritas (in wine, there is truth). When he appears it is breakthrough time, and all too often the first step in breakthrough feels like breakdown. There are better ways of doing this than getting drunk and letting the Gnome laugh at you and poke fun, or going through a psychotic break (which he's been known to induce before), but the better ways take skill, and he has to work with what he has - us, just as we are." "The gnome tells wild and wonderful long-winded stories, complete with demonstrations of the action and much arm waving, although the point of the story is often absent or senseless to our conceptions. The gnome is full of knowledge, but the trick is sorting out the truth from the fiction, which is part test, but mostly just for his own amusement. It takes a lot of good sense to be able to listen to him as he isn't known for his patience."

Katharine
12-08-13, 02:28 AM
So far, and I've been successfully, or rather, I'd say, fluently interpreting cards for 13 years now

Color me curious. How old would you have been thirteen years ago. And, what exactly do you mean by fluently? I'm not certain of how it's meant to be interpreted in this context.

The Gnome sounds like my kind of guy. I've been known to use similar teaching techniques.

What is it about that card which doesn't make sense, exactly?

MonSno_LeeDra
12-08-13, 05:45 AM
Color me curious. How old would you have been thirteen years ago. And, what exactly do you mean by fluently? I'm not certain of how it's meant to be interpreted in this context.

The Gnome sounds like my kind of guy. I've been known to use similar teaching techniques.

What is it about that card which doesn't make sense, exactly?

We'll if she is telling the truth then 13 years ago she'd have been 13 turning 14 according to another thread. http://www.earthsongforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15042

I read her statement and recalled she had said how old she was recently. Part of the reason I have so much doubt about her skill level and boasts she is making. But that is just my own perspective on things here.

13 years old with all the unfolding medical issues she suggested seems contrary to having developed this skill set. Especially this perfection being suggested.

feranaja
12-08-13, 06:36 AM
I found that claim interesting as well. While many of us are gifted as kids,in various ways - it took me the better part of a decade to achieve what I would term "fluency" - and that's with regular effort, daily effort, and professional work, reading in a Shop where there was a steady stream of clients. Even after I resigned from that position, I started the BOTA Tarot course, probably the best one out there for my type of work (traditional Tarot) and realized how much more I had to learn. Fluency at age 13 or so is a pretty hefty claim. ;)

MonSno_LeeDra
12-08-13, 07:30 AM
I found that claim interesting as well. While many of us are gifted as kids,in various ways - it took me the better part of a decade to achieve what I would term "fluency" - and that's with regular effort, daily effort, and professional work, reading in a Shop where there was a steady stream of clients. Even after I resigned from that position, I started the BOTA Tarot course, probably the best one out there for my type of work (traditional Tarot) and realized how much more I had to learn. Fluency at age 13 or so is a pretty hefty claim. ;)

Took me quite a few years as well to get to the point where I joined with the cards vice just reading them. Even then the cards were not my forte so it was forced and was never truly stable.

What gets me is the channeled reading for this card is nothing more than that of Butterfly. The stories hidden in the truth and truth hidden inside of stories. The flapping and distraction of its wings to help mask the truth. Even the face that is revealed is often our own though we tend to hide behind our very masks and hope no one see's deeper than the surface. Even the transformation of self and changing is part and parcel of butterfly. Yet that had to be channeled, that to me means the person is making stuff up and trying to pass it off.

I have to admit though it is interesting that the Gnome is acting like a Brownie. But then perhaps the creator is counting on their reader having no knowledge of things.

SunSister
12-08-13, 01:52 PM
I started reading cards when I was in my early teens as well, but I wouldn't really call myself a fluent reader even now. :) I'm good enough with them, really.. enough to be able to read for myself and for others on a non-professional basis, which is what I was going for in the first place. I think it would take decades to achieve any level of fluency in card reading, although one deck may click with us to the point where it becomes an easier read.

Regarding the Gnome.. I see the Trickster archetype in there as well. Might take you a little further? (What I have found, over the years, is that the more you know of symbolism and archetypes etc.. the easier the readings flow. Even so-called channeled information will have a basis in someone's personal symbolism/knowledge. Everything that now is has come before, so the minute you figure out the history behind the words you can figure out the deeper well of water.)

Katharine
12-08-13, 06:03 PM
A decade, and I've only just in the last year reached a level of skill where I feel comfortable reading professionally, and I use more than the tarot alone when I do so. And that's a decade of full time devotion to the craft, it's what I do. I just added Ars Goetia to my LEISURE reading