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Old 12-15-13   #11
petrus4
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Default Re: Should The Entire Pitbull Breed Be Euthanized?

A year or two ago, my own answer to this question would have been an emphatic yes.

I have since been learning, however, about the fact that different animals tend to have different ecological functions; and that includes those animals which we tend to identify as vicious. Where this idea relates to the pit bull terrier, I will assume that these dogs were selectively bred for a specific function; most likely either hunting, fighting, or possibly working with sheep etc.

As a result, what we probably have is a scenario where these animals are in environments where they have been selectively bred, by humans, to have particular biological functions and instincts, but in modern terms, they are now being placed in environments where they do not have the ability to fulfill said functions. This is a situation which leads to pathological and harmful outcomes in every species in which it occurs, including humans ourselves.

I have never encountered a scenario where a vicious, unintelligent dog, did not have an almost equally vicious, unintelligent human owner, who wanted a dog which was consistent with their own level of aggression, and personality in general terms. As a result of this, you have violent animals living in suburban environments which are completely inappropriate for them.

If pit bulls have been selectively bred for aggression, then I would argue that they can and should be selectively bred for the opposite characteristics. To euthanise the entire breed at this point, however, would presumably involve the deaths of a very large number of animals, and so I think there are genuine ethical issues associated with doing that.
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Old 12-15-13   #12
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Default Re: Should The Entire Pitbull Breed Be Euthanized?

This makes me so angry I can barely type for shaking. HOW FUCKING IGNORANT AND BLIND! It is people like YOU who cause this breed and others the most problems - NOT the breeds NOR their owners but ignorant people who have no experience with the breed other than what they read and hear. HOW FUCKING IGNORANT AND BLIND!

Pits were NOT bred to fight - they were bred to pull. That is what their build is made for - have you noticed their chests?! They are among the gentlest, most loyal, loving, funny breeds out there. For decades they were called the "Nanny dogs" because of their gentleness and protectiveness of their young charges - human babies and children.

One of the most vicious dog attacks recorded was perpetrated by a POMERANIAN who attacked and killed an infant it had been lying calmly beside just moments before. The adult human left the dog along with the baby and the dog killed it immediately. Did you hear about THAT one on DogBite.org?!

Should the entire breed be euthanized? No. But I could go with euthanizing humans who are so FUCKING IGNORANT AND BLIND.
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Old 12-15-13   #13
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Default Re: Should The Entire Pitbull Breed Be Euthanized?

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Originally Posted by DonelleBeira View Post
This makes me so angry I can barely type for shaking. HOW FUCKING IGNORANT AND BLIND! It is people like YOU who cause this breed and others the most problems - NOT the breeds NOR their owners but ignorant people who have no experience with the breed other than what they read and hear. HOW FUCKING IGNORANT AND BLIND!

Pits were NOT bred to fight - they were bred to pull. That is what their build is made for - have you noticed their chests?! They are among the gentlest, most loyal, loving, funny breeds out there. For decades they were called the "Nanny dogs" because of their gentleness and protectiveness of their young charges - human babies and children.

One of the most vicious dog attacks recorded was perpetrated by a POMERANIAN who attacked and killed an infant it had been lying calmly beside just moments before. The adult human left the dog along with the baby and the dog killed it immediately. Did you hear about THAT one on DogBite.org?!

Should the entire breed be euthanized? No. But I could go with euthanizing humans who are so FUCKING IGNORANT AND BLIND.

Remember that your decades of commitment and experience will mean little when up against an Indigo. They know better about EVERYTHING.
but yeah, we are on the same page here. As well you know!
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Old 12-15-13   #14
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Default Re: Should The Entire Pitbull Breed Be Euthanized?

perhaps the scumbags bringing up dogs to kill should be euthanized.
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Old 12-15-13   #15
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Default Re: Should The Entire Pitbull Breed Be Euthanized?

I love the comments on here. I can't add much myself since I am not a dog expert at all and not even much of an animal lover, however I have had experience with pit bulls and some of them were slightly aggressive and some of them were not. No pit bull I have ever seen was a vicious killer though. I have never even been bitten by one, but I have been attacked by a rottweiler. I don't blame rottweilers though and certainly wouldn't suggest the entire breed be euthanised because I understand that the dog wasn't trying to kill me out of maliciousness but doing what it thought was right. I have to agree with the common consensus that it is the owners who treat the dogs terribly that cause this behaviour and most dog experts will agree. For example, my uncle has had a few dogs who were "bad" dogs, trying to bite people and such. One was a breed I don't know the name of, but considered a calm breed and the other was a boer bull which is considered an aggressive breed. The reason for their behaviour was because my uncle did not give them any attention. His current dogs though are calm and our dogs have always been calm, no matter what the breed.

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Old 12-15-13   #16
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Default Re: Should The Entire Pitbull Breed Be Euthanized?

http://www.examiner.com/article/bree...iling-globally
Italy was up to several dozen banned breeds. Recently, they've come to their senses.

http://blog.smartanimaltraining.com/...tal-dog-bites/
Some information about what causes dogs to attack.

Italy at the height of its idiocy, blaming breeds for human stupidity and arrogance.
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?p=3724
Note they banned or restricted gentle and super intelligent breeds like the Border Collie and the Schipperke. Probably somewhere along the line, one of these dogs had an undiagnosed thyroid disease, or was terrified by firecrackers(as was the case in a notorious Labrador attack on a toddler) or some extenuating factor that caused he dog to react - as DOGS WERE EVOLVED TO DO - with aggression, in cases of fear. So, if one individual bit one person, they were all to be "euthanized? It's idiocy. People should learn to do the things that minimize the likelihood of a dog attack; neuter their males(unless you have a super responsible owner) train GENTLY (no Cesar Milan harsh aversion-based training) feed a species-appropriate diet( a ton of starch can make some dogs very wound up) have fullpanel thyroid checks as indicated, and never - EVER - leave a toddler alone with an intact male of any breed.
Also - teach children that dogs are not "things" to be yanked at, pulled at, mauled at will. Most - 99% of dogs will tolerate this, but a small percentage will snap, and then it's the whole breed.
Ah, I am so disgusted with this, but that was probably the point, huh.
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Old 12-15-13   #17
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Default Re: Should The Entire Pitbull Breed Be Euthanized?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyOfTheTrees View Post
This is gonna spring some debate and I assume a few people will get angry, but I was curious about peoples' opinions. What do you all think about pit bulls? I can say right now that 100,000 pits are fighting each other this minute in Detroit and at the end of the month, the ring owners will cash out with $30,000 per month. So, is it just the ring dogs that are dangerous? You're going to be surprised - ring dogs accounted for NO maulings or attacks into 2013 because they're kept confined and their owners understand how dangerous they are - in the following data, all the deaths and maulings came from pet pit bulls, not a single ring dog.
Why would we be surprised? Some of us work with dogs for a living. The scum of the earth who fight dogs have a vested interest in keeping their prize fighters safe from public scrutiny. They are there to kill other fighting dogs and make money. Of course they aren't the dogs who kill or maim humans.

Quote:
And what about their "lock jaw?" It's a myth. They do have a vicious bite and won't let go until their prey is dead, but their jaws don't actually click into place - the Rottweiler has the same ability and it's more about stamina and motivation. A research center in Colorado confirmed this, also stating that their bite is similar to that of a shark. So, are pit bulls killers? Here's there history... Which, and I think they are.
A little basic, unbiased information might help here. Start with this.
http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtua...bout-pit-bulls
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Old 12-15-13   #18
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Default Re: Should The Entire Pitbull Breed Be Euthanized?

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Originally Posted by petrus4 View Post
A year or two ago, my own answer to this question would have been an emphatic yes.

I have since been learning, however, about the fact that different animals tend to have different ecological functions; and that includes those animals which we tend to identify as vicious. Where this idea relates to the pit bull terrier, I will assume that these dogs were selectively bred for a specific function; most likely either hunting, fighting, or possibly working with sheep etc.

We developed these breeds for specific functions.
A lot of people talk about "pit bulls" in a very generic fashion, and they include all kinds of pit-type dogs under the same umbrella. A little history here:

"The pit bull’s ancestors hail from England and were brought to North America by English immigrants. These descendants were bred from the bulldog, which some breed historians believe originally served as a “gripping dog” for hunters of large game. (The term “bulldog” does not refer to the American Kennel Club’s English Bulldog. This more recently developed breed serves as a loyal companion rather than a working dog.) Later, bulldogs were likely used as butcher’s dogs and helped control large livestock. Eventually, these dogs were bred to participate in an inhumane blood sport called “baiting.” Spectators found it highly entertaining to watch bulldogs pitted against bulls, bears and other large animals. During these violent events, one or more dogs were expected to attack another animal, biting it around the face and head. The dogs usually maintained their grip until the animal became exhausted from fighting and loss of blood. After animal baiting was banned in the early 1800s, people began pitting dogs against each other, and the cruel sport of dog fighting was born. As it grew in popularity, enthusiasts developed a lighter, more agile dog for the fighting ring. Some people bred their bulldogs with black and tan terriers, creating dogs who were only 25 to 30 pounds. Others may have simply selected smaller bulldogs for breeding purposes. These dogs were the forebears of the present-day pit bull."

My own breed, as you all know the RR, was developed in the early half of the 20th century, with the specific purpose of tracking and quarrying large game, that European tracking dogs were terrified of.
To that end, bull terriers, Bloodhounds,Great Danes, greyhounds/Deeries, Airedales and the famous Hottentot ridged (wild) dog were incorporated into a breed that possesses immense courage and a range of talents mostly related to tracking;but also fiercely loyal to their family. and uncannily protective given that overall this breed is a Hound ( a group not noted for protective ability).

A supreme dog for those of us who appreciate then. The breed motto is "fearless and peerless". They have a surpassingly gentle nature with anyone they know and love. They do not back down from attacks or threats.
They are not for everyone.
They are not for people who expect a dog to be "obedient" in all things at all times.
They are NOT for people who use aversives/corrections to train their dogs.

I was going to say "get a lab" but there have been a couple of high profile Lab attacks in recent years.
Any dog can attack under the right circumstances. What amazes me, give how stupid we humans are with them, is that there are not more fatalities than we see.



Quote:
As a result, what we probably have is a scenario where these animals are in environments where they have been selectively bred, by humans, to have particular biological functions and instincts, but in modern terms, they are now being placed in environments where they do not have the ability to fulfill said functions. This is a situation which leads to pathological and harmful outcomes in every species in which it occurs, including humans ourselves.
Yes, and to some extent we have to take the responsibility to help these animals evolve/adjust.
My father practised veterinary medicine for 35 years. He was often called to testify in dog attack cases. He and his employee Wayne Bagnell - and a very good vet I might add - used to say, that the only breed they rally feared was the West Highland White terrier and the Chihuahua. Now that is over simplifying, but it makes the point that small breeds can be as or more aggressive" than large. I worked for my Dad for about 17 years and I was bitten once; by a cat.And wow, that was awful (right through the flesh under the thumb, like needles, I can feel it still)...

I say all this to point out that yes, domestic animals can inflict injuries! but why, how and what to do about it is not at all about killing them. It's about, as everyone has said and all the experts agree,making sure that people don't get an animal they can't handle, that people understand the psychology of the dog they welcome into their home - and that responsibility prevail.



Quote:
I have never encountered a scenario where a vicious, unintelligent dog, did not have an almost equally vicious, unintelligent human owner, who wanted a dog which was consistent with their own level of aggression, and personality in general terms.
yes yes yes, that happens! and a lot, it does. But then aggression can be teased out of the gentlest dog, and let's look at descriptor "unintelligent". Dogs are very much smarter than people realize, but they also have strong biological imperatives, as I tried to illustrate with my own breed.
If someone decides to adopt a herding breed, such as the Border Collie, who is rated consistently as the smartest dog on the planet - and then drive it BATSHIT CRAZY with confinement - one lunatic I know confined her BC to a CRATE all day long while she worked - don't come crying to me that the dog is eating the sofa and generally neurotic. GET A FRIGGIN POODLE! BCs need hours of mental and physical stimulation daily -- if you can't provide that, don't get one!


Quote:
As a result of this, you have violent animals living in suburban environments which are completely inappropriate for them.
I don't see any dog breeds as intrinsically "violent" though. Aggression can be provoked more readily in some dogs, for sure - Danny's brother, litter-brother, bit his owner, and this is a very sweet calm RR! After some investigation, they found that Brody suffered from thyroid disease,and once he was treated he has never posed any threat to anyone again.

And hey - ever heard of Spaniel Rage?? "Idiopathic Aggression" can happen anywhere, anytime - this is a very good article on the syndrome.
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/iss...gs_5639-1.html

Quote:
If pit bulls have been selectively bred for aggression, then I would argue that they can and should be selectively bred for the opposite characteristics.
Yes, we can breed traits out as well as in.


Quote:
To euthanise the entire breed at this point, however, would presumably involve the deaths of a very large number of animals, and so I think there are genuine ethical issues associated with doing that.
Most especially if it's simply human stupidity fueling the problem in the first place.
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Old 12-15-13   #19
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Default Re: Should The Entire Pitbull Breed Be Euthanized?

http://www.fairdog.eu/elements/docum...e-behavior.pdf

Quote:
The current study has statistically shown, based on a defined temperament test, that the classification of dog breeds and dog breed types (breed groups), with respect to their aggressiveness toward humans is not supported scientifically.
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Old 12-15-13   #20
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Default Re: Should The Entire Pitbull Breed Be Euthanized?

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Originally Posted by feranaja View Post
They are not for everyone.
As you probably know, Fera, I am not much of a dog lover, truthfully; and I at times experience distress over the fact that said dislike is generally mutual. At this point however, that does not mean that I think entire breeds of dogs need to be euthanised. It simply means that I primarily seek to avoid dogs when I can, and also attempt to speak calmly to those who I do encounter, in order to try and prevent escalation, and potentially being bitten/attacked.

I encountered a spider while showering yesterday morning, and while I was initially startled, was calmer and more conversational with it than I virtually ever am around a dog. I can honestly say that arachnids are emotionally a lot easier for me to deal with.

I've realised that aside from their aversion to me, (I will at times encounter unease in dogs owned by members of the family, who will have been around me for days at a time, and who I will have tried to be kind towards) the main reason why I don't get on with the dogs I encounter, is primarily because they are pack oriented animals.

Canines seem to require a very large amount of almost constant emotional gratification, and find it difficult in my observation to tolerate being seperated from their owners, for even brief periods. My mother has minded dogs here, who will become inconsolable when left in the house, while she goes to play croquet for 3-4 hours. Given that I am a recluse, and have in offline terms been solitary for probably upwards of 75% of the time that I have been alive at this point, I really do not have a lot of patience with this.

That doesn't mean that I have any desire to be cruel to them. It simply means that I find their lack of emotional independence both irrational and annoying at times, and I do not want to associate with them as a result.

Quote:
I was going to say "get a lab" but there have been a couple of high profile Lab attacks in recent years.
My perspective is that if you have any large, quadrupedal animal in your custody, (particularly if said animal has a genetic background that has been bred for the specific purpose of being violent, as already discussed) and you keep said animal within a confined urban environment for an extended period of time, then it is only logical that eventually a tragedy is going to result.

I'm aware of the fact that labradors in particular are known for increased passivity and easy interaction with humans; but as you say, they are still dogs, and are still likely to have triggers at some point. I think the real issue here, is that as humans become more and more divorced from living in proximity to animals in general terms, they are losing the ability to interact with them in a compassionate and responsible manner. This isn't a problem that is exclusive to dogs, necessarily.

Last edited by petrus4; 12-15-13 at 04:02 PM.
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