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Old 02-28-14   #11
MonSno_LeeDra
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Default Re: Threefold Law revisited

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Thanks for the reply -- I'm going to respond in segments here, if you don't mind
Don't mind at all.

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Ah, but many times I have stolen and NOT been caught, and NOT been punished. In fact, more times than not I have only been rewarded by the Universe for such bravado. Are you speaking here in terms of "what goes up must come down" or in terms of an objective moral code that "punishes" when something "wrong" is done??
But it's still the base law of cause and effect, action and reaction, etc. That an action does not result in an immediate arrest for instance using the stealing scenario doesn't change the fact it is still an example of an action will result in a response to that action. In the sense of being arrested it is probable that ones actions will only go un-noticed for so long before repercussions will be administered due to them.

Many people claim a sense of reward for such bravado but seldom does the reward match a truly significant action. Steal a piece of candy and maybe you won't be caught steal ten thousand dollars and you can almost be certain to be caught. Cause and effect based upon degree of action and reaction.

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It seems to me that you are indicating that "moral and ethical influences" of the person's OWN making are responsible for any kind of threefold-law-retribution, yes?
A person's sense of morality and ethics will always be responsible for an aspect of cause and effect. A serial killer often is undone by their own ethics and desire to be recognized for their actions. A person who steals may frequently be undone by their ethics and the conflict that such an action causes within their own psyche. Whether justice is a result of an external force that identifies and acts upon them or their own remorse at things they've done. In the end its all the same with regards to a mental or psychological sense of punishment derived from how thier own ethics and morality work.

Figure a person may steal and feel nothing, yet perform something different and the whole of the world feels upon their shoulders because of their own perceptions.


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Again, "self reflection" and "to judge themselves." So from your perspective it seems that the so-called Threefold Law is purely subjective and self-imposed?
Different in that most often the degree of influence derived from Spiritual / religious influences is different than that of personal or cultural influences. The judgement and infliction of judgement is different yet just as influencing. One form of restitution can be achieved by social justice, other is gained via absolution of sins and such by some higher divinity that they have offended and can achieve forgiveness from.

That's why I say that the spiritual / religious is similar to the mental / psychological morality and ethics but still different at the same time. Yet both are equally caused by a personal perspective of right and wrong and how each person assumes justice or retribution is given and received.

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My overall impression here is that you see the 3xLaw as self-imposed, "based upon ones underlying morality / ethics /etc." So, in your perspective, a person could steal all day long and as long as THEY were cool with it, no retribution would follow?
To my perspective it can not be anything but self imposed. It is the control over the self that ensures the three potential routes of return are controlled or nullified to a degree. A person may steal and feel no remorse for the action yet society says they shall pay via criminal processes. A person may feel no remorse for inflicting harm or death upon another yet a religious / spiritual influences may still act upon them in a way that their own morality / ethics never do. That one may make excuses to justify their actions, ie your example of stealing and not being caught so that makes it right via a justification the universe is rewarding them. Yet all actions will result in some form or reaction. May not be immediate but it will cause a reaction at some point in some capacity.

In some ways one might even equate it to fluid dynamics in action in that all three potentially act upon and re-enforce the others. You steal but feel no remorse, so you steal again and justify that the world and universe is helping you. So you keep going yet are leaving clues behind that build against you until the weight of your actions catches up and your hammered.

You think your getting away but the though of doing wrong is still present. You increase the action but become sloppy in it and your ego wishes to be known for what your doing. Then you get caught or the universe steps in via some other action which removes you from the picture.

A curse is nothing more than another manipulating those currents which makes your own morality / ethics play against you. But also serves to make you more egotistical and makes you want to show your better which pushes you to make mistakes. Thereby increasing the potential that everything is focused upon you.

In some ways the manifestation of so let it be written so let it be done.
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Old 02-28-14   #12
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Default Re: Threefold Law revisited

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To my perspective it can not be anything but self imposed. It is the control over the self that ensures the three potential routes of return are controlled or nullified to a degree. A person may steal and feel no remorse for the action yet society says they shall pay via criminal processes. A person may feel no remorse for inflicting harm or death upon another yet a religious / spiritual influences may still act upon them in a way that their own morality / ethics never do. That one may make excuses to justify their actions, ie your example of stealing and not being caught so that makes it right via a justification the universe is rewarding them. Yet all actions will result in some form or reaction. May not be immediate but it will cause a reaction at some point in some capacity.
Okay, to clarify my example, I never did say it was "right" and there certainly were no justifications offered. Certainly there was cause/effect -- a giant mega-corporation lost some profit, and I was able to survive for the winter, despite working for minimum wage. How much is a persons time worth? Who is stealing from whom and what is the OBJECTIVE morality of taking back what is one's own? To me, it seems you have the belief that stealing is IN AND OF ITSELF a sin that must eventually be paid for. Just because society says it's wrong, certainly does not mean that it is.

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In some ways one might even equate it to fluid dynamics in action in that all three potentially act upon and re-enforce the others. You steal but feel no remorse, so you steal again and justify that the world and universe is helping you. So you keep going yet are leaving clues behind that build against you until the weight of your actions catches up and your hammered.
I know I've spoken about this before, but I'll say it again here ... Nature rewards those who are daring, those who seek, those who are willing to take risks. Nature does not seem to have a morality other than that of Life and the perpetuation of Life. There is no Galactic Police Squad that punishes a cat for stealing eggs from a nest, or killing song birds. However, if that cat becomes lazy, over-confident, etc, Life will certainly knock it down -- the sin is that attitude, not the action. If I was a thief of the highest caliber, Nature would most certainly assist me, but I were to become cocky, sloppy, etc, then I would suffer the consequences. The Law of Man, however, is something different altogether ...

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You think your getting away but the though of doing wrong is still present. You increase the action but become sloppy in it and your ego wishes to be known for what your doing. Then you get caught or the universe steps in via some other action which removes you from the picture.
"The thought of doing wrong" being the operative phrase here, along with "become sloppy" and "ego wishes to be known." These are the sins here, but the action is itself neither good nor bad. Agreed?

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A curse is nothing more than another manipulating those currents which makes your own morality / ethics play against you. But also serves to make you more egotistical and makes you want to show your better which pushes you to make mistakes. Thereby increasing the potential that everything is focused upon you.

In some ways the manifestation of so let it be written so let it be done.
Certainly a good example of one type of curse, "let thee unravel thyself."
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Old 02-28-14   #13
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Default Re: Threefold Law revisited

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By what mechanism does the Threefold Law work? What power/forces/structures are in place that ensure such Threefold reciprocation is enacted? Also, why threefold and not 1:1, i.e. why does what you do come back times three versus 'what you do unto others is done unto you'? Why not seven, for instance?
I think my recent exploration of astral self-surgery, and Katherine's channelling of Yinepu for me which led to that, allows me to offer a somewhat unique perspective on this question.

You are not going to get punished for violating some external, arbitrary moral code, because (other than in extremely general/universal terms, perhaps) there isn't one.

Literally every single thought we have, has actual substance within our astral body. Everything. Every belief, every opinion, every single thoughtform that is associated with you. It's all there.

So the real issue, where karma and the threefold law and such are concerned, is what sort of junk your thoughts (and most especially your habitual emotions, which are extremely important) are putting into your personal field.

It isn't about actions; because in reality, if all is maya, then actions never really take place anywhere anywayz, because nowhere exists in order for them to be able to happen. It is about your own thought, and the degree to which harmful thought and emotion will mess you up. The problem with ethical utilitarianism, is that in order for actions to have consequences, you have to assume that physical reality actually exists; and where I live, that is a rather highly problematic assumption.

If you throw a curse at someone, for instance, then the energy and thought of that curse must pass through your own field before it reaches the other person. It's completely unavoidable; and a certain amount of said energy is going to end up in your own field. Throw out enough curses at people, and you perhaps start to get the picture. All that accumulated destructive juice is going to start making you sick.

So that is really the point. It is literally impossible to do anything that is not going to happen to you, one way or another. When Jesus instructed us about the Golden Rule, what he was really telling us was to hack/consciously use that principle for our own benefit. It isn't just some abstract platitude that sounds good and makes us feel warm and fuzzy.

One of the other clues which Jesus left us, was when he said that the same measure which we use, will be applied to judge us. Unfortunately, what he didn't mention was that that happens because of us judging ourselves through what ends up in our field. It doesn't happen because Yahweh judges us. He (or any other Godform for that matter; I'm a polytheist these days) does not need to. Jesus really was an incredible expert on the workings of astral space; but unfortunately you need context to understand what he was saying, and without that, it just sounds like gibberish, which is why his disciples often couldn't figure out what he was on about, as well.

Case in point. The night before last, on mushrooms, I was finally able to dig my guilt/fear/shame/paranoia complex about the idea that I've waited until nearly 40 before deciding to do anything useful, out of my astral body. I saw said complex as a long rope with what looked like stegosaurus spines attached. It was very deeply dug/sunk into the rest of my system, as well; it hurt a bit to get it out.

During Katherine's channelling, Lord Yinepu told me that it was his job to get crap like that out of a person's astral body before they could really die. He said that it would be a lot more painful for me if he had to do it, than if I did. So I have taken that on board, and am working to get rid of as much of my negative astral-psychological shit as I can.

The really important thing though, is not to replace it. Prevention is much, much better than cure here. Most of us aren't used to the idea that thought actually accumulates over time. We think we have a thought new each time, and that it is a one off, and then it just goes away.

The reality, however, is that in astral terms, thoughts actually have mass. Every time we have the same thought, we are adding to the mass of that thought within our astral body. This is also what Charles Dickens was talking about when Ebenezer Scrooge saw ghosts with chains and safes etc attached to them in A Christmas Carol. They were pre-occupied with wealth, so they weighed themselves down with astral/thought generated representations of said wealth.

This, again, is why habits are so important. Every repetition of a thought, is another link in the chain.

It's also why one of the main things that anyone who is supposedly enlightened will tell you, is not to judge anything. Whenever you judge something negatively, and particularly if you do so habitually, you are storing up all of the negative emotion associated with that judgement in your own astral body, and carrying it around with you, where it can make you sick or have all kinds of limiting consequences in your life later.

Remember this also; your astral body is your ontological filter. So if you fill it with negative crap, then the reality whch gets filtered through it to you, is going to be negative and limiting in correspondence with that.

I've probably gone way off topic, here; but hopefully you get the general idea. The point, more than anything else, is to be internally consistent. Figure out what you want your field to contain, and then stick to that. If you want that to involve offensive actions towards other people, then fine; enjoy having cancer or whatever.

The point is to take responsibility for it, and to realise that you do it to yourself. The Gods are not going to be the ones who ultimately really screw you up. In most cases, they want to help us, and the reason why is because they already know all this stuff, and therefore know that helping people is in their own best interests as well.

Last edited by petrus4; 02-28-14 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 03-01-14   #14
MonSno_LeeDra
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Default Re: Threefold Law revisited

Sorry looks like i'm the main person responding so not sure if it will develop into the conversation it seems you desired.

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Okay, to clarify my example, I never did say it was "right" and there certainly were no justifications offered. Certainly there was cause/effect -- a giant mega-corporation lost some profit, and I was able to survive for the winter, despite working for minimum wage. How much is a persons time worth? Who is stealing from whom and what is the OBJECTIVE morality of taking back what is one's own? To me, it seems you have the belief that stealing is IN AND OF ITSELF a sin that must eventually be paid for. Just because society says it's wrong, certainly does not mean that it is.
I think the social boundaries are always the meter through which one gauges right and wrong. Not just human boundaries either as many of the same boundaries are to be found in other kingdoms upon this planet.

One can't really use the universal notion of a boundary for the survival of an individual or family is of no importance in the greater scheme of things. So humanity will survive unless there is a greater catastrophic event which destroys things. Yet as long as a limited pair survive the universal balance is maintained.

So boundaries and right and wrong have to be measured against a human norming perspective of what is acceptable or unacceptable behavior. So the physical sense of a return resulting from a perceived negative action holds.

So using the stealing scenario again the notion is accepted and enforced as a social boundary. Granted that boundary point will change as conditions change, but the boundary is still present none the less. That society determines said boundaries to ensure its survival and operation rests with the society not the individual. That it punishes those who break those boundaries is almost a constant though the definition of "Breaking" often changes.

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I know I've spoken about this before, but I'll say it again here ... Nature rewards those who are daring, those who seek, those who are willing to take risks. Nature does not seem to have a morality other than that of Life and the perpetuation of Life. There is no Galactic Police Squad that punishes a cat for stealing eggs from a nest, or killing song birds. However, if that cat becomes lazy, over-confident, etc, Life will certainly knock it down -- the sin is that attitude, not the action. If I was a thief of the highest caliber, Nature would most certainly assist me, but I were to become cocky, sloppy, etc, then I would suffer the consequences. The Law of Man, however, is something different altogether ...
Disagree. Nature rewards those who have strength and cunning. Those who take chances more often end up dead or injured in the greater natural world. Your using the illusion argument here to try and justify why one should operate outside the boundaries.

In that sense nature and the universe does punish those who attempt to function outside of the boundaries for a given species. Within the human perspective nature seems to reward and protect but that is more because of human nature than natural order. Especially so when mankind follows the herd mentality, yet when they operate outside of it the thief is punished far more severely. Even to the point of death that would not be pursued in the herd state of mind. So nature is not your ally nor protector, mankind condones it until the social order has determined it has had enough.

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"The thought of doing wrong" being the operative phrase here, along with "become sloppy" and "ego wishes to be known." These are the sins here, but the action is itself neither good nor bad. Agreed?
I think time and place determines if an action is good or bad. Again survival is not a given and nature and the universe does not ensure that a species or member of it will survive. So the actions of a member or part of a grouping is always defined against some other boundary.

During revolution rape, murder and other actions against those who are in control seem's good and suggested. Once the revolution is over those same actions are deemed bad and punishable. Though for me personally I think it not a matter of the action that was taken but the awareness and mental state of the person committing the action that decides. They will be punished regardless of the mental capacity of the person but the right or wrong of it I think can not be determined.

Sorry if this seems disjointed my grandson keeps intervening so my train of though keeps getting distracted.
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Old 03-01-14   #15
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Default Re: Threefold Law revisited

Thanks Petrus, there's a lot there and I'd be interested in continuing conversation on some of those topics in another thread. I've long been a proponent of the idea that everything has substance, and everything exists in significant relationship with everything else. The idea of cause and effect on the 'astral' plane is not foreign to me, either. I'd like to underscore something of my original question:

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Originally Posted by Leben
By what mechanism does the Threefold Law work? What power/forces/structures are in place that ensure such Threefold reciprocation is enacted? Also, why threefold and not 1:1, i.e. why does what you do come back times three versus 'what you do unto others is done unto you'? Why not seven, for instance?
I'm interested in hearing from some practitioners of witchcraft or Wicca who themselves practice or adhere to this rule, and from their perspectives, what is the significance of the threefold aspect?
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Old 03-01-14   #16
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Though for me personally I think it not a matter of the action that was taken but the awareness and mental state of the person committing the action that decides.
Right, that's what I'm saying. This is really a question of threefold reciprocity that I'm interested in, just to keep it on track.
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Old 03-03-14   #17
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I'm interested in hearing from some practitioners of witchcraft or Wicca who themselves practice or adhere to this rule, and from their perspectives, what is the significance of the threefold aspect?
I've expounded on this at length elsewhere on ESF, so I'll keep it short.

From the publicly available material (standard disclaimer) there appears no record of the 'three-fold law' before Gardner, and in Gardner's original publication the term is used in a very different context. The rune is probably the first piece which can (but need not) be interpreted in this way.

I submit to the idea of the law of return. If you do 'evil', then it'll either come back to you either because someone will get you back or because you'll beat yourself up about it. If you do 'good' then mostly that'll come back as well - you're short ten quid someone will cover it, which if you have a reputation for not doing good you're on your own. If you do good and that doesn't happen, then you can console yourself with a warm happy feeling.

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Old 03-04-14   #18
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From the publicly available material (standard disclaimer) there appears no record of the 'three-fold law' before Gardner, and in Gardner's original publication the term is used in a very different context. The rune is probably the first piece which can (but need not) be interpreted in this way.
This was my impression from the material I turned up. What rune would that be?

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I submit to the idea of the law of return. If you do 'evil', then it'll either come back to you either because someone will get you back or because you'll beat yourself up about it. If you do 'good' then mostly that'll come back as well - you're short ten quid someone will cover it, which if you have a reputation for not doing good you're on your own. If you do good and that doesn't happen, then you can console yourself with a warm happy feeling.

blessings
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Right. We live in a continuum, everything comes round in the end. The idea that this return is threefold, however, seems like a pagan 'heaven and hell' of sorts; if you are good, really good things will happen to you, but if you're bad, really bad things will happen ...
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Old 03-05-14   #19
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This was my impression from the material I turned up. What rune would that be?
The verse version of 'the Witches' Rune'. The first reference to 'three times' that I've found is in Gardner's 1949 publication, and it refers to scourging rather than morals. The first two versions of 'the rune' don't include it, the earliest reference I can find in Gardner's publications is 'High Magic's Aid'[1], which only refers to doing good three-fold if someone does good to you. 'Three times good and three times bad' appears to arise from an American rhyming version from the early nineteen-seventies, but I really don't know and if I did I probably couldn't tell.

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[1] High Magic's Aid probably tells historians and folklorists a great deal about how Garner was thinking at the time. I've paraphrased the quote from memory because I can't face searching for it. I'm probably about to commit sacrilege here, but IMO it's one of the worst pieces of English ever written about the occult, in terms of prose. And I'm working on the Sullivan papers, of which the librarian has said 'whom the gods would slay, they first make work on stuff like this'. HMA is enough proof for me that Gardner had help with 'A Goddess Arrives'. It's available as a Kindle download, which might make it worthwhile. Unless you're an antiquarian bookseller, don't fork out for a print version.
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Old 03-07-14   #20
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Default Re: Threefold Law revisited

Thanks, ffetcher. Was hoping to find some deeply insightful perspectives on the significance of the 'threefold law' but my original suspicions have been affirmed through your research. If one more person tells me to be wary the law of three, however, I think I might just show them the law of foot up their ass
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