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Old 07-03-13   #1
petrus4
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Default Man of Kneel: Sick of being treated like the enemy, guys are dropping out of society

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion...AczquQE4AgwTiP

I know the women here do not appreciate it, when I post things like this around here; but this particular article is important.

The article mentions a book by a woman named Helen Smith, which is called Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood and the American Dream — and Why It Matters.

I was having the thought just last night, that I do have a genuine problem where misogyny is concerned, and my own current attitude towards women is something that I am probably going to need professional help to overcome, if I want to try and get into another relationship; yet at the same time, it is becoming apparent that said attitude is not entirely unjustified.

There is something deeply wrong with the way many women behave within contemporary Western society; and the result that we are seeing, is that men are being alienated from them, on a systemic and gender-wide level.

I remember a Brazilian woman I encountered at the hostel I was staying at, in Nimbin. In hindsight I realised later, that one night she was actually making advances towards me, and I probably could have slept with her, but I simply did not recognise it or react at the time. I regret having missed that opportunity, as she was an attractive, intelligent, and apparently kind woman, and we possibly could have initiated a positive relationship, at least for some degree of time.

I've realised, however, that given the amount of legal danger that exists for men where women are concerned now, that even if I had recognised her intentions at the time, I probably still would have been afraid to affirmatively respond.

We have a serious problem, and I am not sure how to solve it. I think the most interesting thing, is the fact that the above book is written by a woman, and I've seen a couple of women on YouTube who speak regularly about this, as well. When women themselves are starting to talk about it, hopefully we can assume that this isn't pure fabrication on mens' part.

Last edited by petrus4; 07-03-13 at 04:11 AM.
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Old 07-03-13   #2
petrus4
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Default Re: Man of Kneel: Sick of being treated like the enemy, guys are dropping out of soci

Something else I've just found, from this past Febuary.

http://www.thesaid.net/culture/angry...study-reveals/

"Angry" feminists are mostly young and queer, new study reveals.

Lest I am accused of trolling, let me point out that again, this study was conducted by a woman, Ursula Virtanen, from the Australian National University. This fact was the main thing that prompted me to include this citation, in this thread. As I said above, apparently pathological and systemic misandry within Western society, is starting to become an object of study by women themselves.

Relevant statistics from the article:-

a} 75 per cent of the women who were considered or considered themselves "radical" feminists also identified as queer – lesbian, trans, and intersex.

b} 81 per cent was comprised of young women – all 30 or under. This corroborates with the claims of older, more rational women feminists that I have read, who have stated that the feminist metastasis towards less healthy expressions and attitudes, has primarily occurred since around 1990. It's apparently a generational issue.

The sample size was only 500, but this offers at least some empirical validation of most of my own observations; that feminism as a movement, originated primarily among lesbians, rather than heterosexual women.

I'm also inclined to believe that either gender chauvanism, or severely negative attitudes towards the opposite sex, in the case of either gender, strongly correlates with a history of psychological abuse during the individual's childhood. I include myself in that assessment.

I'm reminded here of my discussion with Fethenwen concerning Lierre Keith, in an earlier thread on vegetarianism. Lierre was the author of The Vegetarian Myth, and was probably the single most potent and accurate living example of the ecofeminist Left archetype that I think I've ever seen. A lesbian, a radical feminist and environmentalist, and a former vegan, who went through a process which led her to writing her book. As I said to Fethenwen, I would be very interested to know more about Lierre's background, as I suspect that she has a history of severe psychological abuse.

Last edited by petrus4; 07-03-13 at 04:15 AM.
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Old 07-03-13   #3
Cassie
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Default Re: Man of Kneel: Sick of being treated like the enemy, guys are dropping out of soci

Quote:
Originally Posted by petrus4 View Post

I was having the thought just last night, that I do have a genuine problem where misogyny is concerned, and my own current attitude towards women is something that I am probably going to need professional help to overcome, if I want to try and get into another relationship; yet at the same time, it is becoming apparent that said attitude is not entirely unjustified.
Okay, looking at those statements logically, wouldn't it seem more wise to put your perceptions and opinions on hold until after receiving the professional help you recognise that you need? How can you measure the justification of arguments in this area while your own perceptions may be pathologically skewed?

Quote:
There is something deeply wrong with the way many women behave within contemporary Western society;
I would question the word "many" in that sentence. Sure some women behave in a way that even I find objectionable;- but then, so do some men.
You have a tendency to infer macro patterns on unconnected facts.

Quote:
and the result that we are seeing, is that men are being alienated from them, on a systemic and gender-wide level.
Again, some men may feel alienated from women, my guess however is that such men are in a very small minority indeed. And then the question remains; are they actually alienated or is that just a misplaced perception.



Quote:
I've realised, however, that given the amount of legal danger that exists for men where women are concerned now, that even if I had recognised her intentions at the time, I probably still would have been afraid to affirmatively respond.
I do think there should be better sex education with an emphasis on relationship building and advice in schools. It is important that men are better able to recognise the signs and signals that women put out. The legal framework meanwhile is an essential and far from full-proof protection for women who have for centuries endured institutional rape and abuse and refuse to allow that state of affairs to continue.
I am sorry if that is an inconvenience to some men; but in my opinion the laws on rape and sexual abuse should actually be far more strict than they presently are. Men are going to have to readjust where necessary to women being both independent and secure. Most men I know have already made that adjustment.
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Old 07-03-13   #4
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Default Re: Man of Kneel: Sick of being treated like the enemy, guys are dropping out of soci

Let me highlight the other side for you from my experiences with men.

I have been raped and molested by men from the time I was 4 years old. I did NOT ask for any of it yet it happened - repeatedly. One incident that left me pregnant was a 6 hour ordeal that started when a man I had broken a relationship off with 9 months earlier jumped through my living room window - closed window. It ended with him dragging me back through that broken window, naked, out into the front yard where a police car was sitting in front of my house - the neighbors had heard my screams and called them. Two policemen sat in that car and watched as I was bashed against a tree over and over then choked with the barrel of an empty rifle til I passed out. When I came to, my attacker was gone and I was being put into the cop car - for public nudity. They WATCHED part of his attack, they SAW the condition I was in, and let him drive away and did absolutely nothing to protect me or to pursue him. Two years later this same man stabbed his current girlfriend to death then killed himself.

So from where I stand, based on what I have lived through - your perspective is absolutely backward. It is MEN who are dangerous. It is MEN who will abuse. It is MEN who are destructive. And it is MEN who are protected by the laws in the USA.

But I do not blame the gender for the few. I always blamed myself. There was something about me that caused men to treat me the way they have; there was something about me that made them think of doing the things they did; there was something about me that gave them permission; there was something fundamentally wrong with me. It took decades of counseling to rearrange my schemes so I could see myself and others more truly.

Get that help you admit you need, Petrus, and find the path that will bring you security in your own skin. Then, THEN, you can look outward toward others and perhaps find that connection you want.
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Old 07-03-13   #5
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Default Re: Man of Kneel: Sick of being treated like the enemy, guys are dropping out of soci

Brave and strong words from you Leslie. I too have spent my life violated and harmed by men I loved and trusted. It breaks my heart to read "something about me gives them permission" because that has been the story of my life as well. When I look at the devastation men have caused in my life, I often think "no other woman would stand for this". And that's - precisely right there - WHY many women go to extremes of self protection and shielding. because if you don't you end up valueless, kicked over and shat upon as if the purest needs of your soul were less relevant than a bee in the kitchen, worthy of saving. Simply because THEY CAN.

if I had my life to do over, I wouldn't become a "ball breaking feminazi" - I'd just stay completely autonomous so no PERSON ever again had the power to make my life a living hell, confine, control, choose for me.. humiliate and hurt me.

I am so very sorry you went through this too, my dear friend. And if we DO "allow it?" It's because we were programmed that way. I've been most viciously attacked by women, but it's the casual cruelty and harm men who you actually trusted in that does the most lasting damage..by far.
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Old 07-03-13   #6
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Default Re: Man of Kneel: Sick of being treated like the enemy, guys are dropping out of soci

..and, while violence involving women is (shockingly) on the rise, check the stats on things like child porn and animal abuse. Hugely, overwhelmingly, consistently - MALE.
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Old 07-03-13   #7
Cassie
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Default Re: Man of Kneel: Sick of being treated like the enemy, guys are dropping out of soci

Of course Petrus, not all men are bad; and nobody is saying that. But here in this thread you can see evidence as to why ordinary women need legal protection. And why even in so called civilised western society women still have an uphill battle to be treated as fully human.
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Old 07-03-13   #8
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Default Re: Man of Kneel: Sick of being treated like the enemy, guys are dropping out of soci

Both my father and my first husband would have gone to jail had I had the emotional strength at that time to report them.
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Old 07-03-13   #9
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Default Re: Man of Kneel: Sick of being treated like the enemy, guys are dropping out of soci

Until, we, as humanity, can stop trying to place the blame on either gender, and instead acknowledge the problem to be a HUMAN, HOMO SAPIENS centred problem, this kind of thing of one vs the other is going to carry on, and on, and on... as any segregation, division and otherwise attempting to divide the human race into distinct camps leads to disaster over and over, so will any attempt to define either gender as any particular set of traits or motivations also lead to disaster and hurt.

I won't deny that as far as the figures speak, it is women who suffer rape and abuse from men. But these are the figures. And this, THIS is why it is a HUMAN, non-gender-specific kind of problem. I know of men who were raped by other men, who did not report the rape, because they feared that they would somehow be perceived as weak, or that authorities would treat the occurrence of the rape as a 'woman's problem that just happened to man', rather than the act of violation it clearly is.

Not to mention the women who have been sexually assaulted by other women. They exist too, and worse, female rapists are unlikely to ever be charged because of the perception that a penis is the prerequisite to rape.

Those perceptions that 'rape only happens to women' and that if a man suffers an attack, he is somehow weak because they are 'woman like' are the revolting dregs of a rotting patriarchy that is still in place. Men can't cry. Why? Because it's woman-like. Men cannot show their emotions or work through their problems in a reasonable fashion by talking about them, because that's 'woman's stuff'. Men are not permitted to be interested or enjoy certain activities without it calling into question their sexuality and overall identity. Men are denied access to a whole host of things, because somehow, the world still thinks that certain things are 'female only', and that if a man engages in them, he has made himself weak. Because the world still sees women as weak, or lesser, etc, and so why would a male want to associate themselves with such things?

This is why, you, male human, need feminism. So you can be a can be a complete human and have access to all of your rational and emotional capacities without being punished - so that YOU do not become some castrated mockery of 'male', and worse yet, a dreadful parody of 'human'.

On that, as far as my experience goes, there is literally NO DIFFERENCE between men and women in terms of motivations, emotional range, preferences, etc (and physical differences regarding strength are merely based on difference of size and acitivity, and size of a human is variable across gender and culture anyway - I've known plenty of women who worked as carers who were far stronger than the average man, and plenty of sedentary-lifestyle men who are weaker than I am). Each human has their own motivations/preferences/reasons, and their gender dictates none of it. I've met a lot of people over extended periods of time, of all kinds of cultural backgrounds and social status, so I can make this assessment with fairness - once you decide to treat someone's biological sex as being as inconsequential to their personality as their eye colour or shoe size, this becomes plenty clear.

What YOU are seeing has nothing to do with gender or biological sex, and everything to do with the fucked up cultural constructs that are in place regarding male/female. You tell a child long enough they're bad at something, and they will believe you, even if it is false that they are bad at that thing. You tell a child they are angry, brute and cold, and they will grow up that way. You tell a child they are emotional, delicate and manipulative, and they will without a doubt act that way if you re-enforce it enough. You are just re-enforcing negative stereotypes with your thinking, and their not even based in anything rational - they're as pointless and as offensive as saying 'Asians are bad drivers' and 'African-descent people will steal your bicycle'. Ugh.

The whole point of feminism is to break away from all that, and the damage done with social and cultural expectations that, despite the fact that they are little more than prehistoric relics, somehow still continue to influence how we humans think and feel about each other.

In simpler words, because I'm not braining too good this way:

The reason you feel this way about women is not because of women. It's because of culture. Yes, you had bad experiences. Most people have had bad experiences. I'm not going to judge every man I meet as being violent just because once upon a time, a male was violent to me. I'm not going to judge all women as insane just because, once upon a time, a woman behaved irrationally towards me. I'm not going to judge all children as brats, just because I once met a brattish child. After all - I don't judge all humans to be miserable sods, even if a large percentage of the ones I meet are, so why judge at all without evidence? Each person is a unique case, and pre-formed judgements get you nowhere when you're trying to communicate with an individual.

And one more thing - what of those who do not identify as either gender, or identify as mixed gender, or fluid. How would you judge them?

The answer is you judge them by their actions - not what is in their pants.

So why not judge each individual by their actions, rather than by the shape of their parts?

Sure, there's feminists out there than can, and will, make you facepalm. But so do many other humans that identify under any label of your choosing. There's good, there's bad, there's mediocre and downright stupid. The stupid ones are always the loudest - that's just how humans are. It doesn't devalue the idea, it just devalues them - again, judge by their actions, not their parts. I mean, Westboro Baptist church exists, and even the most staunch anti-theists are aware that Westboro are NOT are a representative sample of Christianity - they're just really, really loud. Same goes for the kinds of people you're so worried about.
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Last edited by Kokaba'al; 07-03-13 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 07-03-13   #10
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Default Re: Man of Kneel: Sick of being treated like the enemy, guys are dropping out of soci

Any man who would walk by and let a child drown because he's afraid to risk his reputation isn't anyone whose opinion I can ever see myself valuing. Sorry. I know we do have trouble in that area. The accusation or appearance of impropriety results in summary public judgment. This isn't a man vs. woman issue, though. It illustrates the selfishness inherent in our society. We think of ourselves before our children. Women have this failing, too. Here, if you are certified in first aid/CPR you are legally required to provide assistance to those requiring it, but you can be sued if the patient dies or suffers any long-term harm. So, many people, male and female, simply prefer not to help. We have reached a point where we would allow someone to die, rather than risk our precious money or face any type of legal ramifications. I think it's a deeper problem than we realize, and it can't all be blamed on women. For one thing, however much pressure is applied, the vast majority of our lawmakers are men. The only way anything gets passed is by convincing the men in our legislative branch that it's the right thing to do. It's not as if women pass these laws completely independently and tell men they simply must deal with it. Those laws that men rail against were created, voted on, and enacted by men. But when something goes wrong, it's our fault. I think we all need to start taking responsibility for ourselves, judging one another as individuals, and letting go of old prejudices.
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