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Old 09-28-10   #1
Darth Brooks
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Default Warlocks

In the interest of stirring up further discussions, I'd like to introduce a topic that has been known to stir some controversy around the pagan community. (Hopefully we can keep this conversation about it civil). This topic would be the word "warlock."

We know that originally, "witch" could be used for women and men, as it often is today. Later, witches were usually seen as women, while male witches were called warlocks. We also know that "warlock" is generally considered to mean "oath-breaker," though some would appear to dispute this etymology. And while the majority of contemporary witches consider it to be a pejorative and offensive term, there are LHP groups that gladly refer to their members as such, with the idea that warlocks are merely male witches.

But what do people here at ESF think? Do you think warlock is a "bad" word? If you agree with the "oath-breaker" etymology, what exactly do you think that means? Can it have any sort of positive meaning at all?

To help provide some background for this discussion, here are some interesting links for your reading pleasure.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=warlock
http://www.boudicca.de/warlock-e.htm
http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/cont.../a/Warlock.htm
http://www.pagancouncil.co.za/node/315
http://kaerwynskorner.blogspot.com/2...u-warlock.html


BTW, I am placing this thread in the LHP forum because most of the men I've met who actually prefer to call themselves warlocks have been left-hand path occultists of one kind or another, though I imagine this is not always the case.
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Old 09-29-10   #2
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Default Re: Warlocks

I think that "warlock" is a term that, to me, instantly brings to mind Hollywood. I don't see why male witches need a specific term. "Witch" is not gender specific. I just think that "warlock" is unnecessary and a bit kitsch (I probably spelled that wrong) to be honest.
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Old 09-29-10   #3
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Default Re: Warlocks

Eh, I'd always used the RPG influenced terminology with warlocks being those who make deals with and or bind demons and spirits, kind of like an unholy crossbreed of Shaman and Lawyer.

But that's probably just me.
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Old 09-29-10   #4
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Default Re: Warlocks

I tend to use different terms, but, I have no problem with those who use the term Warlock. To me, it means a male practicioner of magic, whose style of magical practice may or may not be different to Witches, but, that might be just my own view.

Personally, I like how Paul Huson's 'Mastering Witchcraft' uses the term Warlock as an authentic term, along with Witch, Sorcerer, etc.
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Old 09-29-10   #5
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Default Re: Warlocks

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Originally Posted by Seraphyna View Post
I think that "warlock" is a term that, to me, instantly brings to mind Hollywood.
This. I'd be happy to have the title of Warlock, purely for the awesome, lightning-from-fingertips, theatrical badass factor.
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Old 09-29-10   #6
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Default Re: Warlocks

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Originally Posted by Vindictus View Post
Eh, I'd always used the RPG influenced terminology with warlocks being those who make deals with and or bind demons and spirits, kind of like an unholy crossbreed of Shaman and Lawyer.
If you think being magickal lawyer is only in RPGs, you obviously haven't done Goetic work.
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Old 09-29-10   #7
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Default Re: Warlocks

No I haven't, but I know enough to know that that's probably where they got the idea from...

I have been looking around for the Keys of Solomon, just so I have a couple actual texts on summoning to read, y'know?
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Old 10-01-10   #8
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Default Re: Warlocks

due to persecution they all changed their names,Warnock being a classic example of a Gregor Warlock.

The Gregors being the Clan Seer,(back in the days of their being but one tribe (Camp-bells = guards,Stewart = Stewards,Gregor = egregore).

The Gregor Warlock's came the closest to killing the Bruce,as such they were hunted & persecuted.....many being given land in Ireland by the English as Gregory,around the 14th C.

In Scotland,prior to the Gregor Warlocks you had the Williamsons who were persecuted & killed by the hugely successful Scots Canmore line of kings which ended with the Maid of Norway.

Also from the dsl http://www.dsl.ac.uk/

WARLOCK, n. Also warluck, warlick (Abd. 1790 A. Shirrefs Poems 119, 1926 Abd. Univ. Review (July) 223); waurlock; warlo. [wrlk, wQr-] 1. (1) One who is thought to be in league with the powers of darkness and to have supernatural knowledge and means of bewitching and harming others, the male equivalent of a witch (Sc. 1755 S. Johnson Dict., 1808 Jam.), occas. used of women; also, in a weaker sense, a sorcerer, wizard, magician. Gen.Sc., liter. Hence warlockry, wizardry, magic.
*Sc. 1721 Ramsay Poems (S.T.S.) I. 160:
But gin ye be nae Warluck, How d'ye ken? Does Tam the Rhimer spae oughtlins of this?
*n.Sc. c.1730 E. Burt Letters (1815) I. 226:
He was himself a warlock, or wizard, which they knew by his taking the witch's part.
*Ayr. 1790 Burns Tam o' Shanter 30-31:
Thou wad be found, deep drown'd in Doon; Or catch'd wi' warlocks in the mirk.
*Sc. 1817 Blackwood's Mag. (April) 53:
He could maistly hae hauden his ain wi' them, an' it hadna been for their warlockry.
*Sc. 1819 Scott Bride of Lamm. xxiv.:
A warlock's grave shouldna be an inch mair ebb, or her ain witch cummers would soon whirl her out of her shroud.
*Slk. 1822 Hogg Perils of Man (1972) i.:
Sin' the Rhymer's days, the spirit o' true warlockry is gane.
*Sc. 1828 Scott Aunt Marg. Mirror ii.:
That rascally quack would make my fortune. . . . I suppose I must not ask your ladyship anything about this Italian warlock's proceedings?
*Sc. 1831 Wilson Noctes Amb. (1855) III. 121:
The shadows o' a' the eatables and drinkables that his wild warlockry could hae conjured up.
*Sc. 1886 Stevenson Kidnapped iii.:
I'm nae warlock, to find a fortune for you in the bottom of a parritch bowl.
*Mry. 1887 J. Thomson Speyside Par. 91:
There were several that were considered ``nae ower canny,'' but they were all eclipsed by the fame of Willie Watson, a veritable warlock.
*Kcb. 1911 G. M. Gordon Auld Clay Biggin' 20:
Aye glumphin' an' glowrin' at them like a warlock.
*Abd. 1929 Abd. Univ. Rev. (March) 132:
Lewie Gordon wiz a byordinar warlock. He studiet at Padua in Eetaly.
(2) Freq. attrib. and comb., often in extended sense; bewitched, magical, supernatural; malevolent, mischievous.
*Sc. 1724 Ramsay Ever-Green I. 51:
A Bytand Ballat on warlo Wives, That gar their Men live pinging Lives.
*Edb. 1773 Fergusson Poems (S.T.S.) II. 142:
Sure Major Weir, or some sic warlock wight, Has flung beguilin' glamer o'er your sight.
*Ayr. 1793 Burns Dainty Davie i.:
Meet me on the warlock knowe.
*Rxb. 1802 J. Leyden Lord Soulis lvi.:
The black spae-book from his breast he took, Impressed with many a warlock spell.
*Sc. 1821 Scott Pirate vi.:
``Honest woman!'' echoed Baby --- ``Foul warlock thief!''
*Abd. 1824 G. Smith Douglas 44:
Wi' it nae warlock airt they need to ken.
*Fif. 1831 Gasometer 206:
Craws aye biggin' aboot auld waurlock places.
*Ags. 1847 P. Livingston Poems 44:
In the solemn midnight hour: I tauld you warlock stories.
*Arg. 1901 N. Munro Doom Castle xxxv.:
Nane o' your warlock canticles!
*Ags. 1923 V. Jacob Songs 32:
The wind cried frae the western airt Like warlock tongues at strife.
(3) Special combs.: (i) warlock-breef, lit., a written commission to be a warlock, a magic charm, supernatural power. See BRIEF, n.1; (ii) warlock fecket, see quot. and FECKET; (iii) warlockry, supernatural or magical power, wizardry (Sc. 1825 Jam.). (i)
*Ayr. 1786 Burns To J. Smith iii.:
Ye surely hae some warlock-breef Owre human hearts. (ii)
*Dmf. 1808 R. Cromek Remains 281:
Jackets, woven of water snake skins, at a certain time of a March moon, were much in vogue among the crusading servants of Satan; and are yet remembered by the name of warlock feckets.
2. As a term of disparagement: an old, ugly or misanthropic man; a mischievous or troublesome fellow. Also attrib. Dim. warlokin.
*Kcd. 1820 E. Tevendale Poems 31:
Frosty beardit warlock bodie.
*Ayr. 1822 H. Ainslie Pilgrimage 204:
It's awfu' an' unkent the ill, This warlo'kin has wrought man.
*Abd. 1926 L. Moon Drumorty 99:
A witless warlock who was by nature bound to ruin any piece of cloth into which he put a pair of shears.
[O.Sc. warlo, warlou, the Devil, a.1400, = 1., c.1500, warloch, = 2., 1598, Mid.Eng. warlaw, warla, O.E. wrloa, a traitor, the Devil, a scoundrel. The -(c)k forms are phonologically irregular as in ELBUCK, WINNOCK.]

A puil, fit o the Darroch, keepit me drawin fur oors, fur I wis certain a kelpie bedd in its founs, an the cheengin lichts an sweels an birls in the watter wis like a warlock's witchins, reistin me tae yon airt. Picturs hiv ay bin pouerfu tae me. I think in picturs.


Warlo(c)k(e, Warlo, n. Also: warlak, warloch(e, -lach(e, vairloche, warlou, -low(e, -la(w, -lay, varlo(w, virlo. [ME and e.m.E. warlaw(e (c1275), warlau, warlagh (both Cursor M.), warlowe (c1440), warlow (c1460), OE wr-loa.]
For the phonological development cf. ELBO n., ELBOK n. and WYNDO(W n.
1. The Devil. b. A devil or fiend. A lady Mary, madyne chaste ... That ws fra the warlo wane; Leg. S. xviii 636. Warlou; Leg. S. xxxix 297. Betuix ws varlo and thy weris All Chrystis passioun we put compleit; Bann. MS 30a/65. b. War nor ane warlo in thy wrytting Thow Sathanas seid ay sett to evill; Bann. MS 140a/5.
2. As a term of abuse: A scoundrel, a reprobate, once, used by a man of his wife.
Some examples may belong in sense 3. Nixt ... in dans come Cuvatyce, Rute of all evill ... Catyvis, wrechis [etc.] ... All with that warlo [M. virlo] went; Dunb. (OUP) 152/60. I haif ane quick divill to my wyfe ... That warlo, and scho wist That I wald cum to this gud toun, Scho wald ... ding me in the dust; Lynd. Sat. Proclam. 33. He [sc. Montgomerie] was ane fals schismatik ... Ane vairloche [H. warloche], ane woirwolf, ane wowbat ... Ane devill and ane dragoun [etc.]; Polwart Flyt. 634 (T). Their witnesses ... declared by oath that every one of them being in---called the other a thief and a warlak; 1679 Dingwall Kirk S. 320. A petition ... representing that ... Jean Allan ... had often abused themselves, thair wives and families, by opprobious speeches, in calling them warlocks and reprobates; 1683 Cramond Kirk S. II 5 Aug.
3. A person (chiefly or only a man) in league with the Devil; one possessed of occult powers; a sorcerer or wizard. Freq. in collocation with WI(T)CH n.
Some examples may belong in sense 2. (1) That ere was mony weches & warlois brint ... and Jhone the Erle of Mar ... was slayne becaus thai said he faworyt the weches & warlois; a1515 BM Royal MS 17 D XX 307b. I mene ... sic as ... trowis and belevis in wechis and warlayis---ane hie witche is ane warla; 1575 Cal. Sc. P. V 200. Thair report Of wichthes, warlowes, who at night to buryed banis resort; Fowler I 233/20. His royall ring ... All sorcerie it did extinguise plaine So that be it one harmles mycht repair Of varlow vitche or vickit visione vaine; J. Stewart 49/56. [Bond by James Gray, burgess of Wemys, stating that] forsameikill as vmquhile Patrick Lawerok ... delait me as suspect of ane witche or warlow; 1626 Wemyss Chart. 313. (b) Thy speich ... That wreitis of wichis, warlochis [H. warloks] & of wratches; Polwart Flyt. 678 (T). (c) The wast o' Fife ... began to be infested be witches and warlocks; 1627 Dunferm. Ann. 297. To pay ... [66 8 s.] Scotts, as expenssis in mantaineing witches and warlocks in the tolbuith; 1698 Glasgow B. Rec. IV 260. (2) William Fourd ... wes put aff the sessioun, for consulting with a warlow in New-castell in Ingland; 1597 S. Leith Rec. 2/1. We haid lurking within our awin bowelles a poisonable and vennemus Psyllus, a warlow ... sa empoisoned be the vennome of that auld serpent ... that [etc.] ... This is Patrik Adamsone fals Bischope of St. Androis; Melvill 281. A warlaw condemned had delated him as being als guilty as himselfe; 1660 Cupar Presb. 185. (b) For cureing of ... Robert Kerse ... quha wes havelie tormentit with wichcraft and diseis, laid on him be ane Westlande warlach, quhene he wes in Dumfreis; 1590-1 Crim. Trials I ii 234. Calling Walter Aikein ... ane warloche convert thairof summondit to this daye ... and not compeirand, is ordenit to [etc.]; 1598 Misc. Maitl. C. I 91. James Esdaill ... had sclandered him by saying that he was ane witch and ane warloch lowne; 1642 Dundonald Par. Rec. 512. Warlache; 1643 Black Cal. Witchcraft 52/2. (c) Dilaittit, accuset and persewit ... off the crymes following ... for ane cowmone and notorious sorcerer, warlock and abuser of the peopill, be all vnlawfull charmes and devillische incantationes, vset be him; 1605 Crim. Trials II 479. The said Katharene declairit to the said Alexander Hammiltoun warlok that scho was to meit that nycht uith the devill hir maister ... and ... desyret Hammiltoun to be uith hir at that meitting; 1629 Justiciary Cases I 132. His bodie to be brunt in assis as ane sorcerer and warlock convict; 1643 Justiciary Cases III 602. John Shand, reputed warlock, and now fugitive, to be taken notice of in everie parochine, and if he be found, to cause apprehend him; 1643 Dunbar Moray Doc. 39. Warloke; 1646 St. A. Presb. 33. William Grant, ane alleadged warlock; 1650 Elgin Rec. II 274. Johne McWilliam persewed criminally as warloke; 1655 Dumbarton B. Rec. 69. Warlocke; 1657 Misc. Hist. Soc. VII 18. The said William Currie ane warlock and runniegait going fra door to door; 1667 Duncan Glasg. Physic. & Surg. 68. He dealt with a warlock ... to raise the devil; Scot Staggering State 130. She arose ... and railled upon Hob Grieve, calling him warlock and slave to the devil; Sinclair Satan's Inv. World 48. An eminent warlock whose name was Robert Grieve; Sinclair Satan's Inv. World 45.
4. attrib.a. Malevolent, wicked. b. That is a wizard. a., b. This bald bitter bitche, This reid reifar, and this rank warlo witche; Rolland Seven S. 3995. Ane bill of sclander against ... Margaret Wallace ... for saying that he was ane old haired warloch witch theif; 1642 Dundonald Par. Rec. 512. The Devil answered ... I and my father will come and fetch you to hell with warlock-theeves; Sinclair Nat. Phil. 243. Saying, you warlock cairle, what have you to do here? Sinclair Satan's Inv. World 123.



*Sc. 1721 Ramsay Poems (S.T.S.) I. 160:
But gin ye be nae Warluck, How d'ye ken? Does Tam the Rhimer spae oughtlins of this?

Thomas Rhymer,13th century Scot's Prophet.

http://horrormasters.com/Text/a4031.pdf
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Old 10-01-10   #9
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Default Re: Warlocks

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Originally Posted by Vindictus View Post
Eh, I'd always used the RPG influenced terminology with warlocks being those who make deals with and or bind demons and spirits, kind of like an unholy crossbreed of Shaman and Lawyer.

But that's probably just me.
Love this definition too V!

I would say a guy *in league* with Lilith of the Fae/VOID & as such has a natural understanding which some may label *supernatural*.

If you extend the meaning to include someone highly skilled in the Goetia,this then becomes more universal meaning.....to include the Great Architect & Widow's son responsible for building many *perfect* constructions on the Greek Islands before being drawn by Hiram king of Tyre to build KST before being brutally slain(so he could not build another temple) & the secrets *lost*.

Going back farther you get the Black Ziggurat at UR,Chaldea,& the (in)famous Tower of Babel,construction of the Nimrod of UR,before destruction & dispersal of the tongues.

I like the Goetic application to the word. .......not to mention the Egyptian constructions & those of lost Sheba & the old kingdom of Kurdistan & Thracia,libya then onto Crete.....etc.etc.etc.etc.
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With a strong will,patience & hard work,anything can be acheived - Liudmila(Babulja)R.I.P.(10/2/11)Temple of The Star.

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Old 10-02-10   #10
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Default Re: Warlocks

Thank you all for your interesting responses.

I am personally divided on this issue myself. On the one hand, I think the tendency among some to dismiss "warlock" as just a pejorative term is a double standard in that the same was equally true of "witch" until fairly recently in history, when Margaret Murray came along and suggested an alternative definition, and when Gerald Gardner developed that notion further. I think the people who do the same thing with "warlock," insofar as they afford to it a new definition, are doing a good thing. While it is true that "witch" was originally a gender-neutral term, it has been solidified in the popular imagination as a feminine label, to the point of being (mistakenly) identified exclusively with Goddess-oriented Neopagan paths. Therefore it is conceivable to me that a coven of male witches who only worship or work with male deities may have good reason to call themselves warlocks in this context.

However, one of the members of my coven believes very firmly that the term is most appropriately used for witches who betray Sect Law or oaths of secrecy, or who otherwise betray or harm other witches. I do not necessarily agree with him on that point, but our tradition has no official position on the matter at this time, and it really is not important enough to be made into a divisive issue. We have always respected the idea of individual sovereignty and that we don't all need to agree on everything, as long as we agree on the basic issues that really are important to our tradition.

I also feel, as others in this thread have noted, that the word is too theatrical and that it is hard to take seriously. To some extent I feel the same way about "witch" sometimes, insofar as it continues to evoke the stereotypical image of women flying on broomsticks and turning people into toads. Generally, when and if someone asks me what religion or spirituality I practice, I start with the word "Sethian," partly because it is more specific and partly because it does not have very many preconditioned stereotypes or ideas attached to it. (Most times people just don't know what the hell a Sethian is.) I hardly ever introduce myself to anyone as a witch (because it would take too long to qualify what I really mean) and I don't think I could ever introduce myself as a warlock without exploding into hysterical laughter. I'm not half as pretty as Julian Sands, anyway.

It would be interesting to have a person who actually uses the word "warlock" to share their perspective in this thread, but I don't think we have anyone like that on ESF. I am fascinated whenever people appropriate pejorative terms and redefine them as positive labels, as with words like "pagan" and "witch." I think it is a uniquely fascinating socio-cultural phenomenon.
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