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LHP Left-Hand Path: For discussing traditions that reject conventional religious dogmas and/or practices in favor of techniques or positions that are generally considered 'taboo.'

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Old 10-06-10   #21
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Default Re: Warlocks

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Originally Posted by Vindictus View Post
Oh, just thought of this- if a Coven is feminine, and a Cabal is masculine, what would the gender-neutral group be?
In Wicca, a Coven is open to any gender unless otherwise specified.
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Old 10-06-10   #22
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Default Re: Warlocks

That is true, but it's a dirivation from a coven of witches, who are female. When talking about a group of wizards or sorcerers, cabal is the term used, and those terms are thus typically associated with female and male groups respectively.

I guess it could be coven, coven, cabal though. It's just bloody annoying.

Or is coven gender neutral, and are we lacking a term for a group made up purely of females?

Argh. This is hurting my brain.
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Old 10-07-10   #23
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Default Re: Warlocks

To be honest I can't think of any historical precedent for limiting the word coven to a feminine context, or cabal to a masculine context. I believe the word cabal was originally associated with Kabbalists, and coven was a later synonym for a "synagogue" of witches (which was obviously inherited as the result of an anti-Semitic counter-subversion ideology). So I think both terms are gender-neutral, but if you want one that's really gender-neutral I think "cult" is probably your best bet. Though it is of course a loaded term in today's social climate, it is morally-neutral in most anthropological contexts.

Of course this is only my opinion and I wouldn't say that your suggestion is wrong.
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Old 10-07-10   #24
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Default Re: Warlocks

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Originally Posted by Vindictus View Post
That is true, but it's a dirivation from a coven of witches, who are female. When talking about a group of wizards or sorcerers, cabal is the term used, and those terms are thus typically associated with female and male groups respectively.

I guess it could be coven, coven, cabal though. It's just bloody annoying.

Or is coven gender neutral, and are we lacking a term for a group made up purely of females?

Argh. This is hurting my brain.
In fiction, coven may be gender specific, but historically I think it was gender neutral. It seems to come from Scotland where it was used to describe any gathering. It's modern usage as a description of a group of 13 witches seems to be related to the writing of Margaret Murray, who got a lot of things somewhat wrong.

The historical definition of cabal was a group who secretly engaged in political intrigue. I really don't know when or why it started being applied to magic.

Why do you feel we need to separate the magical workings of the genders? I had hoped we were past those notions. I remember when I first became a witch some 20 years ago, and met a group of Dianic Wiccans who believed that men could not do Wiccan magic. Utter nonsense.
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Old 10-07-10   #25
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Default Re: Warlocks

Looks like Luna and I are both right:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cabal
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=coven

For my own part, I've never had a problem referring to the members of my own tradition as a coven, and we are all males.

I feel like "cabal" should be used if there's something about Kabbalah going on in the group, which there isn't really in our case.
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Old 10-07-10   #26
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Default Re: Warlocks

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Looks like Luna and I are both right:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cabal
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=coven

For my own part, I've never had a problem referring to the members of my own tradition as a coven, and we are all males.

I feel like "cabal" should be used if there's something about Kabbalah going on in the group, which there isn't really in our case.
Looks like I had it backwards about Cabal - that it began in the Kabbalistic (mystic religion) sense, and was used to describe the secretive political intrigue.

There was apparently only one Scots trial where Coven was used to describe a group of 13 witches, and didn't become popularized until Margaret Murray was published a couple hundred years later. It doesn't seem to have been in general usage by witches themselves, although they did have to be a secretive lot as well because witchcraft was prohibited by law.
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Old 10-07-10   #27
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Default Re: Warlocks

I do not feel that the genders need to be seperated as such, I was questioning the proper grammar for addressing a group. Older languages and some modern ones have masculine or feminine names for genderless objects and concepts, and I was under the impression that Coven and Cabal were a couple of them. I guess I was wrong.

I still think that Cabal sounds better though ^_^
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Old 10-07-10   #28
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Default Re: Warlocks

We had a war in Scotland where the Covenant(Covenantors/Government) took on the Jacobites(Stewarts),was very nasty.Battle of Killicranky being the decisive one(youch).

I don't see sex being an issue in the Covenant or sex of a Warlock,or any male female connection in deity either.

What I do see is an attempt to pigeonhole the word Warlock so as to distance it from say,the Setian Church definition of a magician?I am pondering the possible intent of this thread.
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Old 10-07-10   #29
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Default Re: Warlocks

I don't believe anyone here was trying to "pigeon hole" the word warlock, but to argue in defense of its appropriation as a positive term in opposition to it's rejection by most mainstream witches today.

Furthermore, I am unaware of any attempt to "distance" the word warlock from any particular terminology as used by any Sethian denomination, of which you may be surprised to know there is more than one. There is no such thing as "THE" Setian church. There is the Temple of Set, the Sethian Storm, the Typhonian Ordo Templi Orientis, and various other groups, including my own. The usage of the terms "magician," "witch" and "warlock" are different among each of these denominations and discussing denominations of modern Sethianity was not really my intention in starting this thread.
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Old 10-08-10   #30
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Default Re: Warlocks

The guy who did the very excellent speech above the casino in LA,was it Frank Aquino or the other guy?A brilliant orator nonetheless who painstakingly explains his concept of Magician........which imo(as a Strathclyde Scot) dovetails beautifully with the true meaning of Mage as well as having the principals as that of Warlock,the powerful warrior class mage aspect of the tribe.

The energy sig from this thread denotes people trying to distance themselves from the word Warlock,maybe for very good reasons.
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