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Old 09-18-13   #21
Cassie
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Default Re: Does Porn Subjugate Women?

I'm also a bit pushed for time and nervous of my dodgy internet connection which keeps cutting out, but I think the following highlights where we disagree the most on this topic..
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Originally Posted by feranaja View Post
. Porn DEMENTS men and exploits women...not all, I'm sure lots of people, like yourself, can use porn as a tool and that's all it is - not an ongoing lie you conceal about yourself, not a replacement for actual sex.

honestly Cassie if you step outside your personal realm and look at the larger picture I think you'll agree a little more. The healthy user is the exception, not the other way around.
I don't know how either of us could either prove or disprove the bolded statement. Perhaps I am demented without realising it? Perhaps the men I have known who like porn are demented without knowing it...?
Demented is such a strong word.
I'm just not convinced.

We have both personalised this discussion to an extent, but that is just because our passions have been raised and we have different opinions.

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I might add that I certainly don't think censorship or some return to Victorian "morality" is the answer - I have some thoughts on how the world needs to heal from capitalism (of which this is a HUGE symptom) but that's a whole other thread.
That would be an interesting discussion too!
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Old 09-18-13   #22
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Default Re: Does Porn Subjugate Women?

Demented is a word I use probably inappropriately, TheThing and I have been calling each other demented for two decades, playfully, so it slipped out. Not cool, I apologize, basically very loose language.

That said; I think porn makes a LOT of men very messed up about their sexuality, I really do. One place to see the fallout is forums where these guys talk about it - the misogyny actually made me physically ill.
Another is, any of the forums for self-described porn addicts and partners of. The struggles these men go through to relate to real, flawed, physical women - who have feelings and needs and normal bodies - is heartbreaking.
So yes, I have seen a lot of fallout, and it's - to me - the antithesis of eros. It's just, at the end of the day, really sad.
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Old 09-18-13   #23
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Default Re: Does Porn Subjugate Women?

Feel I need to correct something I said, as someone pointed something out - when I addressed amatuer porn, I was addressing literally, couples/groups who are doing it for no money at all, of their own volition and for kicks - not some grotty operation where people are offering money to the desperate to do desperate things.

That said, it makes me think of the fact that a woman may feel used or humiliated after uploading an explicit video. I doubt men feel humiliated or exploited anywhere near as often. Hmm. Does porn subjugate women, because society still does? If things were more equal in other areas of society, regarding gender, then perhaps a woman would not need to fear for her future career or family, just because she once appeared in a video. Porn and how women come away from it is a symptom of a deeper problem, imo. Because after all, if people want to fuck on camera (and do so without being forced, and without desperation, etc) then they should be able to do so without fearing the consequences for the rest of their lives.

And to balance things a bit...

I know a lot of men who use porn, not in any severe, addiction-fuelled kind of way, but they do all use it. They talk about it quite openly and I talk to them about it, and none of them are deranged; goofy and geeky and occasion silly, yes, but deranged, not at all.

I suspect at this point, it may be a generational and a situational thing. These male friends of mine who are quite happy to discuss porn are overall under 30, and grew up having pretty immediate and easy access to porn. They also grew up around a culture that was happy to discuss it and be open about it without screaming at them about the immorality of their actions. As such, they don't feel the need to hide the fact - they're not living a double life where they must hide what they do - and I firmly believe that being a situation where you have to hide something like that just primes the brain to develop an addiction (and hey, with the chemistry then involved, the reward etc, it's not hard to see). Those who have partners share their porn with them - it's always open, talked about, and no one has to sneaky off to do a 'dirty deed'.

I suspect for those who are addicted, like many addictions, the stigma of it merely serves to compound the problem. I don't think porn intrinsically sends people loopy or demeans women - though it has the potential to, but so does everything else in the world ever. I think porn largely reflects the moods and inclinations of its society, not the other way around. Porn is not going to magically disappear either, because rude etchings and explicit sketches have been around since humans figured they could put marks on things and create shapes that resembled the shapes out in the world. As I said, the men and women who end up harmed by porn are a symptom of a much deeper ill in humanity, perhaps the very same ill that is responsible for a shitload of the really unpleasant stuff we're confronted with daily. Just saying that 'porn is bad because x' and then suggesting that removal or reduction of porn would solve the issues is a little too much like wishful thinking, to me.
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Old 09-18-13   #24
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Default Re: Does Porn Subjugate Women?

I haven't followed the entire thread, but this is my opinion: I think it differs from person to person. I know some girls who were ripped off and millions of dollars were made off them through shady contracts with fine print, preventing them from receiving so much as a dime in royalties. (I'm one of them). But, on the other hand, a girl I knew since age 14 has been one of the most popular Penthouse Pets of the last decade ("Veronica Ricci"), as well as having done some pornography, exotic dancing and at one time ran her own subscription based .com website. She got breast implants at age 19, another thing I think is controversial. I also worked as an exotic dancer for a time and $300 a weeknight with $700 a night on weekends is, IMO, worth the money - as long as you don't feel bad about yourself because of it. "Veronica Ricci" loves what she does, has made a medium sized fortune and also just plain enjoys the work as she's a diagnosed exhibitionist. So the point I'm coming to is that I think it depends entirely on the person. Some people like the industry (who work in it), and they don't feel degraded by it either, nor are they bothered by the customers. Additionally, the stage dancing is quite fun... Fun enough that most places have "Amateur Night" for birthday parties and things... I don't think there's a cookie cutter answer to this question/topic.
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Old 09-18-13   #25
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Default Re: Does Porn Subjugate Women?

And then there's 420 Girls, Suicide Girls, God's Girls, Deviant Art, Trashy Kittens and plenty of other "feminist" softcore pin-up sites that the girls who model for are amazingly passionate about...
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Old 09-18-13   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feranaja View Post
To a large extent I agree with this, except for the comment "a few people". honestly I think it's the majority. Porn DEMENTS men and exploits women...not all, I'm sure lots of people, like yourself, can use porn as a tool and that's all it is - not an ongoing lie you conceal about yourself, not a replacement for actual sex.
As far as dementing men is concerned, I've noticed that the one way in which pornography has damaged me to an extent, is that it has created resentment. If I look at pornography, particularly in the context of an environment like 4chan, then that creates the assumption that part of the reason why I am looking at porn, is because women are supposedly so completely unattainable, that despite said porn being as vicarious and unfulfilling as it is, it is the best I can hope for.

Psychologically speaking, that leads to very fertile ground, initially for resentment and bitterness as I said, but even that eventually ferments, in the case of everyone on said site, into a state of absolutely seething misogyny.

The thing that I've realised, though, is that my pain is not caused by, or related to, genuine hatred of women at all; it's actually completely the opposite. I'm entirely willing to acknowledge the degree to which I need women, and subsequently, the position of extreme vulnerability that that places me in, since I've observed that women as a gender, really do not psychologically or emotionally need men, to anywhere near the degree that we need them.

What said pain is caused by, is female inaccessibility. I can, as mentioned, entirely acknowledge what I need; but my situation in life makes it virtually impossible for me to obtain it.

If there is one thing that contemporary society is great at doing, it's making most of us feel that we lost the eugenic lottery. If you just so happen to be the mythological alpha male, then congratulations; you get to reproduce, and experience the entire human lifecycle, as it was meant to be experienced.

If you aren't, however, then most of the time, emotionally you're probably better off dead.

Quote:
By far the majority end up impoverished, addicted and in self loathing.
I know. There is one particular actress I used to watch; Gianna Michaels. I saw some of her earlier material; she was fresh faced, and openly smiling, with her eyes as well as her lips.



Over time, however, her expression changed. Her eyes hardened, and she didn't even bother trying to smile, but instead focused on deliberately attempting to look as much like the proverbial depraved whore, as possible. The other issue was, that she participated in scenes that involved rough oral and anal intercourse; degraded, unhygienic stuff.



You ever watch lions at the zoo? You can always tell which ones were captured in the wild by the look in their eyes. The wild cat. She remembers running across the plain, the thrill of the hunt. Four hundred pounds of killing fury, locked in a box. But after a while, their eyes start to glaze over, and you can tell their soul has died. The same thing happens to a man.
-- Samuel L. Jackson, xXx.

I saw that at a strip club in Melbourne, that I went to once. It was a zoo for human beings. Never again. What we've done to chickens and cattle, we also do to members of our own species; men and women both. Male stripping is a problem as well; and my parents took me to a party with a male stripper once. He had never done it before, and was terrified.
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Old 09-18-13   #27
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Default Re: Does Porn Subjugate Women?

Yeah, some of the porn women I've had the misfortune to have seen look like absolute fucking HELL, no pun intended. I can only say to my female friends who are in SO MUCH PAIN about their partner's obsessive preference for, basically, anyone but them - thank your lucky stars you're YOU - and not one of these pathetic shells.

Interesting, petrus, that you feel pain because of lack of access to women, and so many men feel pain because the women they DO have fail to meet their standards (of physical looks or carnality) and so many women are in severe pain because their partners have secret lives devoted to filth and worship of other females, and so many porn actors feel pain because of the work they do and the depravity it involves...what a great industry, what a happy world.
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Old 09-18-13   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feranaja View Post
Interesting, petrus, that you feel pain because of lack of access to women, and so many men feel pain because the women they DO have fail to meet their standards (of physical looks or carnality) and so many women are in severe pain because their partners have secret lives devoted to filth and worship of other females, and so many porn actors feel pain because of the work they do and the depravity it involves...what a great industry, what a happy world.
While my ex was a genuinely beautiful woman, when we initially got together, she was overweight and was experiencing severe self-esteem issues. While yes, I do have certain physical preferences, 4chan has shown me that I'm a lot less superficial in that respect than most guys. Although there were a lot of other issues, her beauty actually was a factor in why we eventually broke up. Sheena received a lot of attention from other men, and at the time, my own sense of self worth led me to believe that she was capable of obtaining a better scenario in general terms, than what I was able to give her.
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Old 09-18-13   #29
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Default Re: Does Porn Subjugate Women?

from what I read a lot of, it's not always looks that count anyway.
There's nothing wrong with physical preference IMHO, but if you're a 50 year old man leering at teenagers - yeah, I think it's pretty sad and messed up. If that's a judgement, so be it. At least have the decency to divorce your wife and let her find an adult partner.
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Old 09-18-13   #30
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Quote:
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from what I read a lot of, it's not always looks that count anyway.
I agree with you. Sheena taught me a lot about entering a relationship, on the basis of superficial considerations.
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