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Old 11-01-13   #11
Kokaba'al

 
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Default Re: I'm NOT slut shaming anyone.

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Originally Posted by StoneSeer View Post
Now that is a compelling statement. I have to agree with you (to some degree), I hadn't really thought it through that far yet. I was simply frustrated. Which brings me to another issue, why aren't the women who are a part of the feminist movement that CAN speak eloquently or put a together a decent argument doing everything they can to empower these other women in a way that keeps them from having to do this?
There are plenty, but they are ignored, looked over, not given the right to speak when they are needed to speak, same old same old. There is a fear of the intellectual woman who can hold her own, and many who do speak out are met with death and rape threats, thanks to the ease of access the internet provides. They do what they can, but SO many simply gloss over their efforts, especially if it's not as attention grabbing and especially if doesn't somehow support their prejudices. This IS the struggle.

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On the other hand, your argument still has it's holes, simply for the fact that it seems to be labeling every woman that does do this dumb. Not all women who do this and call it feminism are incapable of "speaking eloquently" or "putting together a thoughtful argument".
I never called them dumb. Have you ever tried to make an eloquent argument when you're mad as hell, or tried to keep level headed when someone is making digs at a subject that is very close to your heart and very raw? It's not easy. These women are not stupid and I never intended to present that as an option or explanation. These women are mad, frustrated, trapped - feeling powerless, and alone, and lashing out in a world that is constantly trying to make them feel lesser in some respect, whether it be how they look, how they dress or how they think and feel. They are reacting. Besides which, communication is not everyone's strong point, and perhaps a great many of these women are not so privileged to have the standard of education that would give them the skills and confidence to make their arguments and ideas have more impact. We can't assume.


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I'm not just calling out the latest pop star gone rotten here. I've known some of the most beautiful, intelligent young women (and even grown women) acting like this. It's not just those who aren't as bright, or those who don't love themselves enough, it's a LOT of women. And it is a problem. One that the feminist community seems to be letting slide.
Why is it a problem? The only problem is how people react TO revealing clothing and behaviours. It shouldn't matter. If I wanted to walk down the street in little more than a bikini and do so while jiggling my butt, it shouldn't matter. It's just flesh, it's just a body. It's skin, it's fat - skin keeps me safe, and fat keeps me warm, and that's really all ANYONE ought to think or feel towards MY BODY, or anyone elses. And that is the point really - perhaps to dress provocatively is a challenge to those who feel they have a right to judge what body parts are okay to put on show, and which are not.

Miley is a face-palm worthy creature, but I'm not basing that judgement just because she got most of herself out on stage. I'm basing on the fact that the very fact she THINKS she was doing anything 'new and edgy' is ridiculous because no, she really hasn't, and I don't for one second believe she's done any background reading on any feminism, but rather is attaching herself to a term to market herself further. But hey, I guess she's having her own issues, it must be hard to try and remove the influence of an earlier time as a Disney-princess child. There is also the fear that perhaps it was not all her decision and control, which is concerning, but I guess we cannot know from our standpoint.

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Am I being too judgmental? Is it just me that sees this beautiful community of feminists who have the potential to do some GREAT things for women all over the world, but have gotten so (not sure what the word is) that they have let their fellow sisters toss their dignity out the window? There are reasons why this community gets a bad rap sometimes, and it's not just because the world wants to bring us down. It's because we're so focused on the trees we can't seem to see the goddamned forest. I see sisters, mothers, daughters. I see these women and children prancing around the streets and shops in nearly nothing calling it feminism and the rest of the community is making a mockery of them because all they see is skin. sex.
Dignity is a loaded term here. Should dignity not also include the right to rule ourselves and our bodies as we see fit, without fearing physical and mental harm for it? Isn't that the very foundation of respecting the dignity of another?

And if women are making a mockery of other women because of a little skin exposure, they are not feminists. If people are seeing SEX before they see a person (with the capacity to make their own choices and importantly, the right to do also), just because of a style of dress, then they REALLY REALLY REALLY need to get back to studying the fundamentals.


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Take Miley for example. This beautiful young woman really believes she is empowered by the way she acts and the skin she shows. And what do we give her for that display of power? We label her a tramp. So what on EARTH do you think we're doing to these other women?
I don't label her a tramp, though I feel no shame saying she's largely kinda talentless and used cheap tactics to send her own performance viral. It's less about what she showed (I mean c'mon, there's been tons of performers who got on stage WAY more naked than that), more about the horrendous, jarring mismatch of eeeeverything that went on. It's more like she's being rebellious and trying to cause shock value which is... eh, a lot of performers do it, one way or another. Some clearly do it better than others. It's just an unholy mess of bad taste and ill fitting latex.

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We have body-image campaigns all over the place. "You're beautiful just the way you are" "relish your curves" "be proud to be you" etc... Why can't we have "You don't have to use your sex to be a woman of power?" Were's the campaign that says that? Instead, we have grown women dressing their TODDLERS in bikinis and we have 10 year olds at high school football games wearing see through tops that show her training bra!
But don't you think these women end up perhaps dressing this way as a reaction also? I will admit, there's a huge difference between choosing to dress provocatively and feeling that one does NOT have a choice but to dress that way to get anywhere. Feminism shouldn't have anything to do with how one chooses to dress - but what feminism IS trying here to do is to give people the CHOICE to dress as they see fit without feeling coerced either way by other people's judgements.

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My home town is plastered with tweens dressing like whores, and mothers that are condoning it! It's a constant parade of sex out their and now their screaming feminism to boot.


Bottom line? This is not the way, and we should be teaching them that. If they can't speak eloquently enough to be proud to be a woman without showing their ass, teach them.
The efforts to teach people about feminism are ongoing, and the emotions are always going to be running high because real people are involved. The aim is to empower, not take away options. I really haven't seen many here locally claim that their dress-choice is reflective of their feminism, and yeah, it is concerning when children dress in a more adult way. I would have to judge each person making a claim individually, whether or not they understood what they were presenting and why. Even more importantly, I find this a further example of the "women can't win" mentality that is so rampant and is exactly what feminism is trying to fight against. "Women can't win" is merely the name I give to the dilemma women are constantly faced with when deciding how to present themselves, how to live, etc etc: you know, the old notions we've all heard said and parodied a million times: woman who doesn't put out on a first date is a prude, and the one who does put out a slut/the woman with many partners is a whore, but the women with none is fridgid/ etc etc.

I'm not defending people who may rather thoughtlessly or clumsily invoke feminism to defend their choices rather than properly explaining them or thinking them through (and these women are not stupid, but remember - there is a massive ongoing fear and dislike for the academic woman and I feel many of these women are too frightened to really show their intellect because people can be absolutely vile towards women who present intelligence). I'm saying that it shouldn't matter at all, ever, how one dresses; and that the weird, rather hateful reaction society has to women who expose themselves (for whatever reason) is instead what needs to be focused on and studied so it can be overcome. Especially since the hatefulness so often comes from other women, and I suspect, that too, is yet another relic a patriarchy that convinced too many females that they needed to compete with each other, rather than just love each other as they are...

[edit].... wrote this all very very last in the night, I am having my ass kicked my insomnia and this may not make any sense, I just realised - if so, apologies.

Last edited by Kokaba'al; 11-01-13 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 11-02-13   #12
petrus4
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Default Re: I'm NOT slut shaming anyone.

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Originally Posted by StoneSeer View Post
It's not just those who aren't as bright, or those who don't love themselves enough, it's a LOT of women. And it is a problem. One that the feminist community seems to be letting slide.
The problem here, comes from viewing feminism as something genuine, as opposed to something that is primarily a public nuisance. The movement in older terms (think Fera's age group) had legitimate reasons to exist. Third wave feminism, on the other hand, primarily serves to give meaning to the lives of those, who otherwise would have none whatsoever. It's a noise generator, and very little more.

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There are reasons why this community gets a bad rap sometimes, and it's not just because the world wants to bring us down. It's because we're so focused on the trees we can't seem to see the goddamned forest.
In my own case, it's because I literally never see anyone associated with gender advocacy on either side, who is not, in truth, motivated either by discontent with their own individual lives, or otherwise mentally ill. It's just not something that happy, successful, well-adjusted people do.

Quote:
Take Miley for example. This beautiful young woman really believes she is empowered by the way she acts and the skin she shows. And what do we give her for that display of power? We label her a tramp. So what on EARTH do you think we're doing to these other women?
In my own mind, Miley's behaviour is pathological. I'm not necessarily going to call her a tramp, but I am likely to call her someone who got sucked in by the corporate machine, and now probably has severe psychological issues as a result.

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Why can't we have "You don't have to use your sex to be a woman of power?"
Because abstinence, personal responsibility, and avoiding self-destructive behaviour are not popular. Sensory gratification alone, without regard for the potential consequences is.

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Bottom line? This is not the way, and we should be teaching them that. If they can't speak eloquently enough to be proud to be a woman without showing their ass, teach them.
You are not going to be able to teach them. They do not want to learn that. They have found something which they think they enjoy, because of the fact that, at least during some of the time, they get to experience the sensory gratification I mentioned earlier. They either do not understand, or are not consciously aware of, the fact that the levels of rage and misery which they experience the rest of the time, are consequences of that.

I spent probably several months trying to reach the people of Reddit about their degeneracy; I saw the level of agony it caused them. Yet their only response towards me was rage, and in the end it only succeeded in causing me to become more negative myself as well.

Hedonism is not the way to avoid pain, because pain and pleasure are inextricably and unavoidably linked. The Buddha taught this. To the extent that you experience pleasure, you will experience an equal amount of pain.

The answer is to avoid, in excess, experiencing either.
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Old 11-02-13   #13
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Default Re: I'm NOT slut shaming anyone.

You made a lot of really good points, Kokaba'al. The one think I cannot seem to get out of my mind is the "not taking away the choice..." argument. Saying the word Fuck is a choice, but there are a LOT of people who see it as a pretty derogatory term and whatnot. A LOT of people would even say that I sound uneducated and/or cheap. Why? Because there are so many "better" terms out there that could not only make me sound bright, but allow me to express myself in a not-so-offensively-spit-in-your-face kinda way. Like coming up with a thoughtful argument rather than saying fuck you and leaving it at that. To me, it's the same as being caught in an argument and flashing some skin to prove a point rather than actually using my brain. It's a bit tougher but it IS possible. I do agree, as I said to Alice though, that there IS something wrong with our society as far as seeing skin and it equaling sex. To me, the issue is that we KNOW this is a problem. Does that mean approaching it with provocative clothing is the smartest way about it? Why not use art? or a (omg, no way) a campaign! since we seem to have one for every single tiny little issue in the world today. To me, there's a difference in letting a baby girl run around in a diaper and letting her run around in a tiny little tank top cut at just under where her breasts or a bikini. To me, they call it provocative clothing for a reason. I'm not saying take away their choice to dress the way they want. I'm saying that we should teach them how to express pride as a woman and advocate for their rights and empowerment as women and how that doesn't have to be won by showing their sex. (though it is wrong that seeing skin registers as sex to us, the fact is that it does, so fight that with more intelligence than prancing around in provocative clothing why don't you?)
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Old 11-02-13   #14
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Default Re: I'm NOT slut shaming anyone.

I'm not exactly eloquent about this ... I can try to sum it up as an "older woman" with one foot in all kinds of human rights issues and another in a bit of a less sleazy time and age.

1) I don't care what anyone wears or doesn't wear,because OBVIOUSLY it is their right! and whether this is a feminist issue I am undecided, as there is so damn much exploitation of sex these days it's hard to see it as such, but - still not entirely sure. At bottom, I support the right of people to dress anyway they want as long as....
2) I also have the right to find it vulgar, distasteful and unpleasant.

Anyone telling me what to wear or not will probably not do so a second time, unless I am feeling very tolerant that day. Hence, if women want to wear stuff I think is tacky or unflattering or whatever, I'll keep my mouth shut, but also I have a right to dislike it and not be deemed repressive, Victorian, or worst of all, OLD. I'm none of the above, I just have a sense of taste that is part of who I am, a sense of decorum, and if people don't like that - oh well.

I might add that feminism in my day involved our right to things like equal pay and birth control, so a lot of this seems really puerile and self-important to me.
That's about it, for me.
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Old 11-02-13   #15
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Default Re: I'm NOT slut shaming anyone.

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..I might add that feminism in my day involved our right to things like equal pay and birth control, so a lot of this seems really puerile and self-important to me.
That's about it, for me.
BOlded mine. I have to agree with this 100 percent. It also explains why my sisters think today's feminist are self centered.
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Old 11-02-13   #16
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Default Re: I'm NOT slut shaming anyone.

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BOlded mine. I have to agree with this 100 percent. It also explains why my sisters think today's feminist are self centered.
I match your boldiness with my own. You have probably heard me say it before, but I have quite a few issues with today's feminists. I've yet to (outside of ESF) meet a feminist who focuses solely on things that are actually issues (i.e. reproductive rights and whatnot) rather than having their feminism driven by domination vs equality. AND 100% of the "feminists" I've met in-person were man haters.

I was actually in the midst of a discussion last night where a person admitted to have always believing that the feminism meant anti-male rather than the advocacy for women's rights.
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Old 11-02-13   #17
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Default Re: I'm NOT slut shaming anyone.

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I match your boldiness with my own. You have probably heard me say it before, but I have quite a few issues with today's feminists. I've yet to (outside of ESF) meet a feminist who focuses solely on things that are actually issues (i.e. reproductive rights and whatnot) rather than having their feminism driven by domination vs equality. AND 100% of the "feminists" I've met in-person were man haters.

I was actually in the midst of a discussion last night where a person admitted to have always believing that the feminism meant anti-male rather than the advocacy for women's rights.
I've heard my sisters and nieces say the new movement has hurt them more than helped them. All the gains that were made years ago are being lost today because its no longer about equality. I recall seeing one of my sisters threaten to whip a woman's arse if she used "Man-speak" as a definer one more time. Said she'd much rather hear man-speak than twat-speak.
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Old 11-02-13   #18
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Default Re: I'm NOT slut shaming anyone.

I have to wonder though, guys - if all the puerility is just feminism? It seems to me that everywhere I look, narcissism and shallow-self-focus reign supreme...irrespective of gender, or political outlook.

Crowley's "Aeon of the Child", indeed.
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Old 11-02-13   #19
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Default Re: I'm NOT slut shaming anyone.

and THIS is what I think is modern feminism, on every level; a woman who has attained power by skill and hard work, and uses it to support the needs of women all over the world. Miley Cyrus' ridiculous attention-grabbing behaviour is completely and utterly irrelevant in comparison.

http://www.upworthy.com/dont-ask-hil...her-answer?g=2
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Old 11-02-13   #20
Kokaba'al

 
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Default Re: I'm NOT slut shaming anyone.

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I have to wonder though, guys - if all the puerility is just feminism? It seems to me that everywhere I look, narcissism and shallow-self-focus reign supreme...irrespective of gender, or political outlook.

Crowley's "Aeon of the Child", indeed.
LOL yes, this! Puerility is not gender specific, and everyone's at it. And in the midst of the storm of focusing all attention of self first and foremost (and not in a nurturing, self-development sort of way), people lose sight of the real issues.

If I could rule the universe for a little while, one of my first acts would be to make all the earthlings gender-less for a few months. I think humanity would get a lot done, and upon having their genders returned to them, they might just keep living whatever lessons they learned.

I'd probably also make them spend a few months naked, so they can just get over the neuroticism that surrounds the exposure of flesh. I remember being a kid and living in Italy, and going to the beach there. I'd say 90% of the women at the beach were happily sunbathing and generally doing beach stuff topless. From young women with enviable bodies to older women, boobs were aplenty, all colours, shapes and sizes - and NOBODY gave a damn. Not the kids, not the men at the beach and certainly not the women. It was not sexual not considered obscene, people just damn well wanted a nice tan sans tan lines, or simply saw no reason to cover up. I wish that sort of attitude were common globally.
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