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Old 12-22-13   #11
petrus4
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Default Re: Am I raping you??

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Originally Posted by Cassie View Post
So wanting to be treated fairly, justly, respectfully and equally is a sign of mental illness? I think I must have missed that lecture.
Most of the time, that is not in reality what it is about, Cassie. Both sides try and claim that, but in reality, that is only to try and make their respective side of the argument look good.

I can count on one hand, the number of people involved with civil rights in literally any form, that I have observed, for whom the word "equality," was not merely a polite euphemism for the actual social dominance of their particular minority.

Virtually (and again, I mean virtually, not completely; take note of my choice of words, here) nobody wants genuine equality.

The reason why hardly anyone wants real equality, is because real equality means that you actually want the supposed enemy to have whatever you do as well; and that, in turn, requires empathy. That means that you stop gazing at each other across no man's land (whatever particular form that takes) and actually try and develop some different habits based on the meeting of mutual needs; where you actually care about the other group getting said needs met to the same extent that you do your own.

Conflict is easy. That's why there's so much of it. Attack, counterattack. It's a very, very old dance at this point, and everyone knows the steps. The only real reason why peace is so terrifying, is because it actually involves thinking about how to cope with an unfamiliar scenario. Most of us have been fighting in one way or another for so long, that some have even managed to deceive ourselves that we will literally die if we stop. Ironically, the truth is actually the opposite.

Really doing something different, however? Sure. Everyone talks a good game about it. Everyone also says, however, that peace can only come, when the other person or group makes the first move. It's always that guy over there who has been victimising me. It's never my fault, or my responsibility. I'm blamess; pure and innocent as the proverbial driven snow.

The merry go round only stops, when I decide to get off. What anyone else chooses to do, is ultimately irrelevant.
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Old 12-22-13   #12
Cassie
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Default Re: Am I raping you??

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Originally Posted by petrus4 View Post
Most of the time, that is not in reality what it is about, Cassie. Both sides try and claim that, but in reality, that is only to try and make their respective side of the argument look good.

I can count on one hand, the number of people involved with civil rights in literally any form, that I have observed, for whom the word "equality," was not merely a polite euphemism for the actual social dominance of their particular minority.

Virtually (and again, I mean virtually, not completely; take note of my choice of words, here) nobody wants genuine equality.

The reason why hardly anyone wants real equality, is because real equality means that you actually want the supposed enemy to have whatever you do as well; and that, in turn, requires empathy. That means that you stop gazing at each other across no man's land (whatever particular form that takes) and actually try and develop some different habits based on the meeting of mutual needs; where you actually care about the other group getting said needs met to the same extent that you do your own.

Conflict is easy. That's why there's so much of it. Attack, counterattack. It's a very, very old dance at this point, and everyone knows the steps. The only real reason why peace is so terrifying, is because it actually involves thinking about how to cope with an unfamiliar scenario. Most of us have been fighting in one way or another for so long, that some have even managed to deceive ourselves that we will literally die if we stop. Ironically, the truth is actually the opposite.

Really doing something different, however? Sure. Everyone talks a good game about it. Everyone also says, however, that peace can only come, when the other person or group makes the first move. It's always that guy over there who has been victimising me. It's never my fault, or my responsibility. I'm blamess; pure and innocent as the proverbial driven snow.

The merry go round only stops, when I decide to get off. What anyone else chooses to do, is ultimately irrelevant.
You keep saying things like this Petrus, but where is your evidence?
Here on ESF there are a lot of women and many of us consider ourselves to be feminists. Are we the ones who are mentally ill?

Or if not, then whom?

Sure you can find sites like the one referenced at the top of this thread; but they are either ironic or represent extreme views that are in no way similar to the people you actually know and converse with.

Well you do visit some odd sites that I would not consider neutral or even realistic on many issues, but please do not take those as representative of what most "people", let alone most feminists or advocates for equality in any sphere are really like.

Most of us are actually a lot more refined, mellow and generous in our thinking than you like to give us credit for. And of course painting those you disagree with as all being extremists is a sad old trick that is frequently used by many people that you and I would both disagree with.
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Old 12-22-13   #13
BigAl
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There is so much wrong with this, Petrus... I'm not sure where to start...
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Originally Posted by petrus4 View Post
I can count on one hand, the number of people involved with civil rights in literally any form, that I have observed, for whom the word "equality," was not merely a polite euphemism for the actual social dominance of their particular minority.
In the context of this thread, women are a minority? Never mind that, it's the least of my concerns...

Equality has nothing to do with attaining dominance. I will agree, it has nothing to do with balancing the scales, either. Most "minority" rights movements are little more than hoping to gain a level of social acceptance which doesn't see their interests ignored, their civil rights crushed, their liberty endangered. The goals of such movements are simply to ensure that every human being on the planet enjoys the same rights as those who would otherwise subjugate, enslave and imprison anyone who doesn't fit the white heterosexual male adult mould...

Quote:
Virtually (and again, I mean virtually, not completely; take note of my choice of words, here) nobody wants genuine equality.
Noted. But none the more comprehensible. If you had said "nobody believes that genuine equality is attainable in our lifetimes", I'd have agreed. But the notion that (virtually) nobody wants genuine equality beggars belief...

Tallying the disenfranchised, oppressed, wrongly imprisoned, those abused, living in fear, poverty... I think we would find that the VAST majority would wholeheartedly embrace, even the smallest, movement towards a more equable social norm.

Quote:
The reason why hardly anyone wants real equality, is because real equality means that you actually want the supposed enemy...
The language of warfare seems rather telling. Battle lines are obviously important somehow... but who is our enemy?

The sweatshop children churning out cheap wares in order that we can continue to enjoy western lifestyles, the sex-slaves trafficked across the world, the man down the street who simply wants to love another man without fear of being abused and beaten by his neighbours, the natives being evicted from their tribal lands to allow production of "green" diesel, the list goes on and on...

Quote:
...and that, in turn, requires empathy.
And this is so hard? We are incapable of understanding the pain, fear and constant stress of just trying to survive, being unable to express ourselves honestly, hoping that he will come home in a good mood tonight?

Quote:
That means that you stop gazing at each other across no man's land (whatever particular form that takes) and actually try and develop some different habits based on the meeting of mutual needs; where you actually care about the other group getting said needs met to the same extent that you do your own.
Wonderfully put. The sooner the west, in particular, recognises the need to adopt these new habits, lower their expectations, and lessen their burden on available natural resources, perhaps, just perhaps, a closer approximation to equality might be achievable...

In the context of this thread, I would hope that all any of us want is a loving, caring relationship based on trust, respect and shared ideals and goals. I'm not entirely sure why, if that were the case, we would need to adopt any different habit... unless of course our relationship is flawed, not based on ideas of equality, and our expectation is that our partner (sic) will bow to our every whim, remain subservient and accept whatever abuse we see fit to mete out.

Quote:
Really doing something different, however? Sure. Everyone talks a good game about it. Everyone also says, however, that peace can only come, when the other person or group makes the first move. It's always that guy over there who has been victimising me. It's never my fault, or my responsibility. I'm blamess; pure and innocent as the proverbial driven snow.
So step up. Isn't it time the first move was made?

Quote:
The merry go round only stops, when I decide to get off. What anyone else chooses to do, is ultimately irrelevant.
Which brings us back to the topic... in the most horrific way possible...

The merry go round stops when the owner says so. And those hoping to ride should recognise that, and get off!!
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Old 12-23-13   #14
Katharine
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Default Re: Am I raping you??

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Tallying the disenfranchised, oppressed, wrongly imprisoned, those abused, living in fear, poverty... I think we would find that the VAST majority would wholeheartedly embrace, even the smallest, movement towards a more equable social norm.
Of course they would, but can you really say the majority of them wouldn't also take superiority if it was offered to them?

I must disagree with the degree of Petrus' statement. I wouldn't say that (almost) no one wants equality. I want equality, I'm all for equality, real equality, I don't want to be better than anyone else in a social sense. Where the oppressors are concerned, I'm already better than they are in a spiritual sense, what more could I want?

I will however agree with the gist of the idea. Not all, perhaps not even most; but certainly a LARGE portion of people who want equality would prefer superiority. They can't have superiority, and they know it, and saying they want it would hurt their chances of getting equality. If they could get it, they would.

That doesn't change the fact that I would bet you right now $100 that if you chose a homeless person at random and offered him Buckingham Palace, the one response you wouldn't get is "No, that wouldn't be fair."

It's human nature to compete, to want more than the other guy. The only people who don't want more than their neighbor has are people who have transcended those "baser instincts", in other words, the spiritually enlightened.

If you deal with spiritual people, of course you don't see that as often, but if you spend all day among people who spend too much time trying not to die to consider things like ethics, you'll find they're willing to do a lot more to get ahead... And it's not getting equal they're after, it's definitely getting ahead.

And, um, for the record, Z Budapest everyone like her, pretty undeniably wants superiority. So yeah, it's out there.
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Old 12-23-13   #15
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Default Re: Am I raping you??

I can honestly say that I've never forced myself on anyone if I've had the slightest doubt, or even thought that one of us might regret it later. I've probably missed some opportunities that way, butI don't regret that.

That said, I'm fairly sure that my wife has offered sex when she didn't particularly want it, because she knew I did. Does anyone here figure that is a form of coercion?

I don't consider rape a valid topic for satire, but it has at least provoked a discussion here.

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Old 12-23-13   #16
petrus4
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Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
Equality has nothing to do with attaining dominance. I will agree, it has nothing to do with balancing the scales, either. Most "minority" rights movements are little more than hoping to gain a level of social acceptance which doesn't see their interests ignored, their civil rights crushed, their liberty endangered. The goals of such movements are simply to ensure that every human being on the planet enjoys the same rights as those who would otherwise subjugate, enslave and imprison anyone who doesn't fit the white heterosexual male adult mould...
That is the perspective of the people of this forum, yes. It is not necessarily the perspective of the pathological feminist demographic of Tumblr, or the equally pathological mens' rights/Pick Up Artist subcultures.

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Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
Tallying the disenfranchised, oppressed, wrongly imprisoned, those abused, living in fear, poverty... I think we would find that the VAST majority would wholeheartedly embrace, even the smallest, movement towards a more equable social norm.
No. What most of them would actually like, if they were honest, would be for things to improve for themselves. To the extent that most, at least want equality, it almost always reduces down to them disliking the idea of anyone else having more than they do.

As much as we might like to tell ourselves otherwise, and talk about "solidarity," we generally do not hate the proverbial 1%, because they have more money than our hypothetical next door neighbour. We hate the rich, if we do, because they have more money than us.

I need to explain something else here. The members of this forum should not consider themselves a typical sample of mainstream humanity. At the risk of encouraging elitism, we are not. Hence the reason why, when I make observations about humanity being stupid, selfish, and generally degenerate to the point of likely causing its' own extinction, people here reflexively become offended, because they assume that I am speaking about them.

We can also tell ourselves that selfishness is not one of the norms of human behaviour as much as we want; but simply looking at our current situation will show us the unpleasant truth.

Note, however, that I do not agree with Hobbes completely; in the sense that I still want to see said selfishness changed. If I did not believe that our supposed human nature could change, or felt entirely pessimistic about the ability of our doing so, then I'd at least be strongly tempted to go and throw myself under the next passing car, and get it over with. So I do not insist on describing things as they are, because I believe that they can not be changed. I insist on describing them as they are, because we can not begin to change them, until we make a truly accurate assessment about them.

The progressive Left tend to make far, far too many assumptions about the supposed benevolence of human nature. If we apply Kropotkin's model of Mutual Aid to human beings, that automatically invites unrealistic levels of optimism. What many believers in such fail to note, however, is that while Mutual Aid is observable in animals, (particularly eusocial insects, which were Kropotkin's primary case study) this is because for whatever reason, animals have a much greater capacity for mutually reinforcing behaviour. Mutual Aid is what we should be aiming for. We make a tragic, and potentially lethal mistake, however, if we pretend that in terms of humanity at least, it is already here.

Man's capacity for violating or overriding our instincts is, in many ways, our most fatal flaw. If we truly followed said instincts, then not only would Hobbes be proven wrong, but he never would have had reason to develop his philosophy in the first place. To the extent that those of this forum have succeeded in transcending the suicidal tendencies of the mainstream, they have done so by re-embracing said instincts.

Quote:
The language of warfare seems rather telling. Battle lines are obviously important somehow... but who is our enemy?
Democrats and Republicans. Fundamentalist Christians and Satanists. Atheists and theists. Capitalists and Communists. Muslims and the rest of the planet. People who want to see Superman win in a hypothetical fight between him and Batman, and vice versa.

People define themselves in contemporary society, to a large degree by what they consider themselves the opposite of. If you consider yourself an adherent of the political/economic Right, you're going to view the Left as the enemy, and contrariwise. It is the Hegelian Dialectic, and it is one of the most effective means of social control. Divide and conquer.

I use the language of warfare here, where most do not, because I wish to be more direct than most. In some ways this could be considered overkill; a debate between different economic adherents for example, most of the time will not lead to bloodshed. Yet at the same time, I am not interested in euphemisms to describe differences which are, for the most part, a matter of degree.

Quote:
The sweatshop children churning out cheap wares in order that we can continue to enjoy western lifestyles, the sex-slaves trafficked across the world, the man down the street who simply wants to love another man without fear of being abused and beaten by his neighbours, the natives being evicted from their tribal lands to allow production of "green" diesel, the list goes on and on...
The genuine perpetrator in all of these cases, BigAl, is not in truth, who we consider it to be. Let's take a child who is sold as a sex slave, for one example. The reflexive assumption of most of us, will either be to blame the individual who took the child, or in more abstract terms, the corporation or cartel who paid the abductor or pimp.

Yet we don't, in many cases, think about the people who act as that child's clientele; whose demand and patronage are the cause of the sex slave industry. We also, especially don't think of that person on the street, who very possibly walked past the child during the very act of the child's abduction, and who was either so oblivious in their own thoughts of consumption or getting home in time to watch TV, that they genuinely didn't see the abduction taking place, or worse, did see it but told themselves that it "wasn't their problem," and walked a little faster to get past it, in order to minimise the time during which they would have to wrestle with their conscience.

We really do not want to think about that last person, most of all. Want to know why?

They could be us.

As V said, if we really want to find the guilty, all we need do, is look into a mirror. We want to protest corporations, but we don't want to stop giving them money to run mobile phone networks. We also don't want to stop going to Starbucks, or using Facebook, or bringing home groceries in plastic bags, or continuing to buy the pointless, hand-held garbage from Apple which no one needs, and which only lead to social isolation, still more corporate dependence, and the ongoing choking of the environment.

I brought home dinner from Subway less than an hour ago. I am just as much to blame as anyone else. Given my current scenario, it's a lot easier, less stressful, and more comfortable to avoid the potential conflict surrounding my brother's attempts to use me for his own economic benefit, which cooking usually involves in this house, and simply buy food which has been prepared by someone else, and eat alone.

This is why I view protesting with contempt. Aside from it being pointless, it is also a comfort zone activity. The Left want collective benefits, but they do not want collective responsibility.

We need and crave the existence of the proverbial 1%, even while many of us claim otherwise. Even if the rich did nothing else...even if the corporations did not keep producing the goods and services which we claim to be incapable of living without, despite killing us...the single reason why the rich are still indispensable to us, is for their most important service of all. They give us someone else to blame.

We are all to blame. A distressingly large part of myself is deeply ambivalent about going north again. Yes, I've bought the plane ticket, and yes, I'm going to go; but part of me doesn't want to. Part of me simply wants to continue cowering in front of the computer screen for months and years on end, and play Minecraft, and be nocturnal and completely socially isolated, and eat terrible junk food, and watch pornography, and talk meaningless bullshit with the rest of the no-life demographic on IRC, Reddit and 4chan. At this point, that has been my lifestyle, with rare exceptions, for two decades. It is probably the manner in which my 28 year old brother will spend the remainder of his existence.

Why? Because it is safe. It is predictable. It is within my comfort zone. It would never involve me having to face any form of uncertainty, or any form of risk, or anything which might make me remotely uncomfortable. No human relations. No sex. Nothing dangerous whatsoever.

It is, however, also a slow death; and even on the offchance that it does not reduce my lifespan, it will still result in my reaching my deathbed, and having the agonising realisation that in terms of the amount that I have accomplished in life, I may as well not have lived at all. Instead, I'm going into a scenario which is open ended, and which, if I finally and truly find what little courage I have, I will not be coming back from.

These are the sorts of risks that we all need to start taking. To throw our mobile phones away. To get out of soul-destroying, dead end jobs in cubicles, and allow ourselves to experience the terror of the idea that maybe, without said dead-end jobs, we might not survive. I am terrified of going back to Nimbin; but more than anything else, I'm terrified of having to be genuinely independent, in the real, offline, dystopian world. It is not a fear which is relieved by my acknowledgement of it.

I am aware of the fact that some adults, (on other forums if not this one) and particularly those with military backgrounds, would also look at the above disclosure, and smugly think to themselves that they can barely believe how juvenile, immeasurably cowardly, and generally pathetic poor Petrus is, and then say a prayer of thanks to their respective deities that at least they are better than that. Pride has always been a luxury that I can ill afford.

Yet the truth is, that even though most within this particular forum have become adults in the true sense of the word, the vast majority have not.

As we sit here, edging closer to the precipice of species extinction, we must ultimately remember that the only thing that has any chance of saving us from said extinction, is a realisation about who is ultimately responsible for our current crisis.

It isn't the corporations, or the child pornographers, or the Muslims, or the terrorists, or even the governments.

It is us.
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