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Old 01-21-11   #11
Nuadu_of_Kildare

 
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Default Re: Oak King and Holly King in Celtic Neopaganism

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Originally Posted by Meadhbh View Post
But, I would do it solely based on the fact some writtings have called it celtic.
Ah well, theres one issue!. Its in myth but is that myth celtic or just medieval Irish/welsh/etc... Or if its broadly indoeuropean and could be present in things like Asatru and Hellenismos could you apply it as something specifically celtic in a celtic neopaganism?

I wouldnt even be certain there was a druid priesthood for there to be a 'druidic' religion... but then Im questions mac questiony, the man who questions everything, and itd be odd if I didnt question the existance of druids. lol
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Old 01-21-11   #12
Nuadu_of_Kildare

 
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Default Re: Oak King and Holly King in Celtic Neopaganism

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The only thing I can think of is its symbolic of certain acts. For instance the demise of the Oak King I vaguely recall aligns with the cutting of the Missle Toe from the Oak Tree's. It somewhat seen as taking the seen and gatherig it and carrying it forward.

But even that I can only recall the association of Oak and Missle Toe unless Holly somehow came to be associatied with the missle toe. Granted Holly has red berries and missle toe white berries if I recall correctly.

Though I just woke up so perhaps my mind is still foggy with sleep.
I dunno how graves decided one was oak and the other was holly tbh MonSno, you make a good point there though.
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Old 01-21-11   #13
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Default Re: Oak King and Holly King in Celtic Neopaganism

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Originally Posted by Nuadu_of_Kildare View Post
Ah well, theres one issue!. Its in myth but is that myth celtic or just medieval Irish/welsh/etc... Or if its broadly indoeuropean and could be present in things like Asatru and Hellenismos could you apply it as something specifically celtic in a celtic neopaganism?
well it could be. I think in Asatru the green man/Holly King could be represented by Odin. not sure what the oak king could be represented. possibly by Balor? not sure. as the Santa claus has been linked with Odin and does sorta represent a Green man/Holly king archtype. and with Hellenismos you would probably have Saturn/Cronos represented as the Holly King and Jupiter/Zeus as the Oak King.
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Old 01-23-11   #14
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Default Re: Oak King and Holly King in Celtic Neopaganism

Yeah it could be broadly indoeuropean LD. But is it Celtic enough to be considered Celtic Theology?
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Old 01-23-11   #15
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Default Re: Oak King and Holly King in Celtic Neopaganism

. the arch types for it can be considered Celtic. other InoEuropean sources usually just have the light defeat the dark. here there is a constant struggle
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Old 10-26-15   #16
Windsmith bat Gaia
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Default Re: Oak King and Holly King in Celtic Neopaganism

I'm reawakening this thread not because I'm a Celtic recon or a neo-Pagan with a Celtic path, but because my first project for NaNoWriMo 2015 is based on the Holly King/Oak King myth, so I've been doing some research on it.

It fascinates me how many people call it "an ancient Celtic myth" or claim it was an important myth to pre-Christian Druids, when, as far as I can tell, either James George Frazer or Robert Graves basically made it up. At most, there seems to be a couple references about literal holly and oak trees, how in winter the mighty oak sheds its leaves, leaving the holly with its red berries the most prominent plant in the forest; while in summer the thick leaves of the oak tree obscures the holly. That's it. Literal trees. And the myth grew out of that, much, much later (as opposed to certain plants or animals coming, in time, to be associated with various deities or mythological figures).

I just like the idea of two figures (or two aspects of one figure, as some versions of the myth suggest) constantly coming to the fore and then receding, neither one more important than the other, no one ever permanently winning against the other. I don't need it to be real or ancient.

Anyway, just thought I'd reopen the discussion in case anyone has new insights or something to add.
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