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Old 01-06-15   #11
Lightdragon
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Default Re: Plastic Surgery

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Originally Posted by Leben View Post
I think there are valid uses for plastic surgery -- reconstruction after serious injury, or fixing some congenital defect, for instance. I've considered getting plastic surgery to fix a partially deviated septum (the part between the nostrils, inside the nose) which makes it difficult (impossible, really) to breath through my nose during cardiovascular exercise. It doesn't affect me much in my day to day life, so it's not on my list of priorities, but it's right there under laser corrective eye surgery.

Now, I wouldn't be doing either of those to make myself more attractive, either to my own perspective or that of another, it would be to correct something which otherwise makes my life more difficult. But therein lies the problem. Suppose someone with Body Dysmorphic Disorder wishes to get plastic surgery in order to feel more comfortable in their own body, are they not correcting something which for them causes a difficulty in their daily life? But where does it stop? They may then begin to get more plastic surgery to correct the previous surgeries, thus reinforcing the perception of self imperfection, thus deepening the body dysmorphia.

Ultimately, it would be better if we had a society that honored beauty in all its forms and held each person and being in creation as intrinsically perfect, but that not being the case (for the most part), it's up to the doctor to use discretion and separate those who could truly benefit from the surgery from those that are just willing to pay ... which also, is all too rare.
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Originally Posted by feranaja View Post
For me, anything that anyone wants to do, in terms of body modification, is fine. To condemn a woman for having a facelift while covering yourself in tattoos is the height of hypocrisy. I do see some cases of famous people who have gone (IMO) overboard, for sure... but for millions of people, cosmetic surgery has been a Godsend. Ever see what someone's body looks like after they lose 150 pounds? They need to wear girdles to hold all the loose skin in place. Of course, if modern science can help us feel better about ourselves, why not? I don't take a stand pro or con, I think it's a personal decision and no one has the right to condemn or judge anyone else for it.
pretty much these two sums up my opinion of this.

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Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
I know a few celebrity who got massive plastic surgery like Michael Jackson and Joan Rivers. They went overboard with plastic surgery for who knows how many times they went.
like Fera said it is (or was their right).

the only time I do not think it is ok is if it will put the person in physical danger. as some of these surgeries can do and there a few cases of people dying from it.

also besides Tattoos I would say dentures, piercings ,wigs, hair dyes and makeup.
and to a lesser extent cutting any hair. as those are also body modifications.
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Old 01-06-15   #12
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Default Re: Plastic Surgery

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Good lord, I can hardly compare getting a facelift or some other work to alcoholism.
But if you are saying, would I sit by whena friend went berserk with cosmetic surgery? Honestly, even that(which i have never seen) is not anywhere near as damaging as drug abuse. It can of course be damaging, but it's not the same thing, to me, at all. Would I interfere if someone decided to cover their whole body with tats? Nope. It's probably just as bad as becoming a surgery addict, but still - it's their right.
I think you're overreacting a bit to what I said -- one, I never compared getting a facelift to alcoholism, and two, I made a distinction between drug use and drug abuse. My only point is that there IS a definite line between plastic surgery use and plastic surgery abuse. Tattooing is (nowadays) a reversible process, so I don't think that analogy really applies. I personally believe we DO have a responsibility to intervene when friends and loved ones become excessive in any behavior to the point that it becomes self-harming. That's why I specifically brought up BDD, since it prohibits a person from objectively seeing their body as anything other than imperfect, so no amount of plastic surgery is going to address that. And you already know (by my first post) that I'm not against plastic surgery if it makes one more at ease with oneself. But the doctor should be able to identify psychological problems which would actually be exacerbated by surgery, even though the patient has the 'right' to seek it. The doctor has the 'right' to refuse.

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I did see that documentary. And it strikes me, that using surgery to make oneself into a living barbie, for the consumption of others, is a wholly different phenomenon from, the overworked woman who needs a facelift (autobiographical and I am SO glad I did it) or the person who hates their oversized ears and gets 'em pinned back. I feel very positively about the latter, and feel sad about the former. But it still doesn't give me the right to judge.
Some of the women in that documentary actually had phenomenally large labia to the point of self-consciousness, so it doesn't all have to do with being a living barbie. Other women had perfectly normal labia but were made fun of by their sisters as children, and sought surgery to feel more normal. Should they be able to have the surgery? Absolutely, but the doctor should provide them with statistical images and studies to let them know they are indeed NOT abnormal, help them with self-worth through therapy and use surgery as a last resort. IMO. FWIW.

I'm glad you got a facelift if it makes you happy, but if you start getting on in years and become one of those old ladies with a frightening stretched face, I will throw a shit storm and then tell you that you're beautiful the way you are -- because I love you. If you decide to get another facelift anyways, I will still love you, but I will worry about you and deeply question your sanity.
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Old 01-07-15   #13
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Default Re: Plastic Surgery

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I'm glad you got a facelift if it makes you happy, but if you start getting on in years and become one of those old ladies with a frightening stretched face, I will throw a shit storm and then tell you that you're beautiful the way you are -- because I love you. If you decide to get another facelift anyways, I will still love you, but I will worry about you and deeply question your sanity.
I probably did react too strongly, but this is a topic I feel strongly about. People often react to it (not saying you!) from a set of insecurities and resentments that turn out not to be rational, but when you confront them with this, they turn into that guy from Spinal Tap (remember 'these go to eleven?") I do get frustrated with this. So my apologies if I posted too quickly - I do much less of that these days than I used to, but nobody's perfect.

As for my face - well, old-ladyhood is a couple decades away, and who knows what the world will be like then? To contextualize, people like Joan Rivers had work done every couple of MONTHS. I had a lift ten years ago, and I'm thinking I'll look into some more work in another year or two. Every ten years, or even five as we start to really age, is not a lot. Someone like Stevie Nicks (to use a public figure) is doing it right...IMO. The extreme cases like Ms. Rivers get all the press,but loads of mature ladies get little tweaks here and there and remain youthful without trying to actually look 20. For me, the important thing is that I address my health, first and foremost - this is the year I get more serious about that. It's useless to mask a range of physiological issues with surgery or makeup! So, while I'm not doing too badly n that department, this year I am taking the stress down and the exercise up, I'm going to actually apply what I know about taking care of oneself. And when the time is right to tweak things again, you bet I will, if I am fortunate enough to be able to afford it.

But no, I wouldn't go the Joan Rivers route, she really did develop an overdone look. To be fair, I see much younger women who have had disasters, not all of them related to lifts. That "trout lips" thing is just awful, there's one I'd never dream of.


Stevie Nicks is 66 years old - that's what good work looks like!
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Old 01-07-15   #14
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Default Re: Plastic Surgery

Joyce Carpati at 82. (and yes, this IS goin to be me!)

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Old 01-07-15   #15
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Default Re: Plastic Surgery

I would totally have some work done... I keep putting it off because of money and I don't want to be put under.
The vagina reconstruct...well...some women may want that to feel anything again. It is a choice, some on a medical level some on a personal level. I read once that most women who do it pick the 18 year old version
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Old 01-07-15   #16
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Default Re: Plastic Surgery

I believe you can only use plastic surgery on moderation.
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Old 01-07-15   #17
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Default Re: Plastic Surgery

Everything in moderation........
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Old 01-07-15   #18
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Default Re: Plastic Surgery

Fera~ all that makes sense, and I think you're right that a little bit here and there, in moderation, conjoined with lowering stress and other factors that contribute to accelerated aging, is a good way to go for some people. Not being female, there's a lot I'm not going to understand from first hand experience as regards self-perception of beauty and aging. And what I said about being an older person with a frighteningly stretched face comes from an experience I had of meeting a girl's mother (who was quite wealthy, but on in years) who had obviously pushed it to it's limit. It evoked an incredibly strong feeling of pity in me since I could tell this person was actually very afraid of death and BEING old, and there was largely an inability to accept what IS. Who am I to judge? But it's not judging to have an impression of something that's really happening in a person -- I think many of us have developed a sensitivity toward the inner happenings of people, beneath the surface, even when they do not see it themselves. One of the 'perks' of self-knowledge is knowledge of a transcendent self which expresses itself through individuals.

There is a woman I know who is a part of the spiritual community I participate with -- she's an old Scottish woman, short, plump, frizzled red hair with a face like Baba Yaga, and in my eyes, she's one of the most beautiful women I know. Sexually attractive? Not in the least. But so, so beautiful. And partly, I think, because she's not trying to be what she's not.
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Old 01-07-15   #19
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Default Re: Plastic Surgery

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There is a woman I know who is a part of the spiritual community I participate with -- she's an old Scottish woman, short, plump, frizzled red hair with a face like Baba Yaga, and in my eyes, she's one of the most beautiful women I know. Sexually attractive? Not in the least. But so, so beautiful. And partly, I think, because she's not trying to be what she's not.

People often say that, I hear it said with kindness here, as you have and also with a nasty undertone of "mutton dressed as lamb" in other places. As if letting nature take it's course was somehow morally superior than altering things as we go. I am clear that's not your stance Leben, just trust me - there's a lot of that out there.
I like to smile enigmatically and spray them with some rose hydrosol, personally.

FWIW, I do think that authenticity of Soul is always beautiful. But I will say that my efforts to look a certain way are not at all in denial of death, I feel like I am confronted with death all the time, actually. I have changed things about myself to look on the outside more like I actually feel, internally. So I guess I might say, I'm not trying to be anything I'm not, but rather, just hoping to look a bit like what I feel inside.My face is an authentic expression of who I am. I will never Botox my laugh lines, but there's stuff I'll keep doing. Because, Venus in Taurus is as much part of who I am as, well, everything else. you know?
For me to look in the mirror and see an old old woman, would be just totally disorienting.
Once a venusian....
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Old 01-07-15   #20
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Default Re: Plastic Surgery

Oh yeah I almost forgot, not only that plastic surgery is unhealthy it's also very expensive. I think it's cost thousands of dollars.
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