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Old 11-02-15   #11
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Default Re: Triple Goddess? No, thank you

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Originally Posted by petrus4 View Post

Age is nothing to feel bad about, Fera. Its' only real disadvantage is the fact that it means that the older we get, the less time we have before we die. Aside from that, it's all good. Greater degrees of knowledge, skill, self-confidence...who doesn't want those? Mental calcification can be a danger, yes; but I don't think it needs to be, if we stay active.
I'm trying to figure out where I conveyed that I felt bad about my age - what I'm bothered by, and what this post was meant to convey, is the notion that once we hit 50, we are "Old". I've had many many women in my age group chastise me for not completely submitting to the ravages of time - even so far as bugging me about my lipstick and bra-wearing. The implication is that in order to be "wise", you must look a specific way, and that way is prematurely OLD. Grey hair, glasses, stooped, in a long shapeless sack of a dress and shawl.
But my point is - that's all very well and good if you really want to dive headlong into your dotage; many of us do not, and we are no less powerful because of it. I am working to keep mentally alert, spiritually supple and physically well, because while I feel oldER, in no way, at only 57, do I feel OLD.

Does that help clarify?
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Old 11-02-15   #12
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Default Re: Triple Goddess? No, thank you

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Originally Posted by Bee Eye View Post
What a relief to find someone else who is not really a fan of this concept.
I think there's a few of us!

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First a disclaimer: Maiden/Mother/Crone was not part of my original training, so therefore wouldn't be part of my early spiritual imprinting.
I had it more or less drilled into my head, lol. But I was a maiden, so you know how that goes - you think, at that age, you have forever, so who cares.

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The Goddess was seen as being threefold, but that threefold nature was seen more in the Macrocosm, as the Goddess of Space (or the Sky) the Earth and the Underworld. This doesn't mean They/She could not also be found within us, but rarely would They be seen as exclusively age related in any particular way.
This is more resonant with my current view, for sure, and the individual images of Deity are different.


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The M/M/C, while I sincerely feel is not without its merits, also feels far too anthropomorphic to me. Somehow it often turns things into a 2D reality. I prefer a transcendant 4D that is more of a mystery - less precisely defined and more open to the infinite and exploration.

It almost tweaks my fluff-o-meter just a tad too. However, I have every respect for the sacredness it holds to others, if that makes any sense.
That makes perfect sense. I can respect a thing that doesn't resonate with me, spiritually - as long as I'm not having that way of thinking thrown up at me all the time, as I have with the whole Crone thing.
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Old 11-03-15   #13
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Default Re: Triple Goddess? No, thank you

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Originally Posted by feranaja View Post
I'm trying to figure out where I conveyed that I felt bad about my age - what I'm bothered by, and what this post was meant to convey, is the notion that once we hit 50, we are "Old".
I honestly don't consider that terribly unrealistic. Over the last several years, I've heard about an uncomfortably large number of people who have died within their mid 60s. I consider 60 to definitely be the beginning of "borrowed time." (As in, the period where a person could conceivably die at literally any time)

For me, 50 marks the point at which, more than anything else, in the vast majority of cases, if we have not done anything meaningful or significant in life, then we are unlikely to do so. This does not mean that there are no exceptions to that rule, but they are just that; exceptions. I have usually heard the fiftieth birthday described as a point at which people scream and cry in absolute emotional agony, because said people often feel as though they haven't really accomplished anything, and now more likely never will. So that is basically what 50 means. It's not yet the time where your life is definitely over, but it is the point at which, if you haven't yet started anything, suicide is probably the most humane course of action.

Both of my parents are 70 now, and they are also as pathologically narcissistic now as they were twenty years ago. I have abandoned any hope whatsoever of them changing. I also know a woman here at the hostel currently who is in her 60s, and shares the usual trademark narcissism of my parents' generation. I fully expect her to die that way. This is why whatever personal growth I'm going to do, I need to make sure it gets done within the next eleven years; because after that, it might not at all. One thing I've worked very, very hard on during my time up here, is getting to the point psychologically where if I never do anything else, allowing the fact that I am here and that I did succeed in escaping my family, to be enough.

I am not someone who believes that humans should live forever, but at the same time, I also consider the brevity of the human lifespan to be the single most cruel characteristic of the human condition. To me, three to five centuries would feel a lot more fair. Dying in our 70s means that we go when we've only really just started to develop genuine maturity. It feels like a waste. It has taken me nearly forty years to crawl out from under the tyranny of my parents, yet if I live as long as Wayne Dyer, I've got just over 35 years left. Fuck that. Time is already starting to pass that quickly for me now that I can't keep track of it.

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I've had many many women in my age group chastise me for not completely submitting to the ravages of time - even so far as bugging me about my lipstick and bra-wearing.
It's probably jealousy, more than anything. I'll never forget the time when, while still living in Kyneton, I experienced confusion after realising that I was intensely sexually attracted to a 64 year old woman who was living there, because I literally did not think that that was supposed to be able to happen. I accused myself of deviancy. I am not someone who experiences mild sexual attraction either, unfortunately. Either I will ignore a woman completely, or my reaction (internally; I'm very, very good at repressing it) is animalistic. There is no middle ground.

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But my point is - that's all very well and good if you really want to dive headlong into your dotage; many of us do not, and we are no less powerful because of it. I am working to keep mentally alert, spiritually supple and physically well, because while I feel oldER, in no way, at only 57, do I feel OLD.
Yes, but you are likely also noticing that the amount of work you need to do to stay that way, is only increasing. My beard is close to completely grey, now. I usually do not care about my appearance, but that bothers me, although I am not going to dye it, either.

I read in a text on Buddhism a bit back, the outline of something called graveyard meditation. Apparently in both Buddhism and Hinduism, meditation in graveyards or cremation grounds is recommended as a way of psychologically reconciling ourselves with the fact that that is where we are ultimately going to end up. Kali is usually depicted meditating in a cremation ground. I've considered trying to find the local cemetery and doing it myself for at least a few nights.

I try not to hate death as a concept, I really do; but it's difficult not to. I am not like the transhumanists, though. I genuinely don't want forever; I just think that less than a single century is downright sadistic. The main thing that amazed me about Yinepu while speaking to him through Katherine, was his level of compassion; since traditionally, my own psychological relationship with death has been extremely negative. It is not death itself that bothers me, though; it's the idea that, again, literally everything that I am or have tried to learn, is going to completely cease to exist after less than a hundred years. It is not fair.

Last edited by petrus4; 11-03-15 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 11-03-15   #14
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Default Re: Triple Goddess? No, thank you

you can focus on death, petrus - I'm focusing on life. And suggesting that people who haven't started anything by 50 should kill themselves, is something you should take a step back from, and deeply consider.

All my best work is ahead of me. I may do a Masters in Nutrition intensive over the next few years. Certainly I plan to publish and build a little school. If I can swing it, I want some land to expand my herb-growing and rescue more animals. If this all happens, great. If not, I still did work I value and I made a difference here and there. And that's true for so many. Nobody I know was screaming in anguish at 50, or 60, or 70. But then these are people who are living and celebrating life, whether they've accomplished their dreams or not.

Ask Katharine what Yinepu has to say about that.
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Old 11-04-15   #15
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Default Re: Triple Goddess? No, thank you

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Originally Posted by feranaja View Post
I mentioned in another thread that I am "no Crone".
Some people might find that perplexing as I am 57, and I know, when you're in your 20s and 30, that seems really ancient.
Some people think, once you've stopped menstruating, well time for granny glasses, wrinkles and grey hair.
Thank goodness in this modern day and age, we are able to choose to mature quite differently compared to how things were back in the days.
Women became something which in our language we call "tummu" or "mummo" which is quite similar to granny (but sounds cuter). Women could be very "tummu" already in their 40's and 50's, which is a woman who has had her children and is wearing a scarf most of the time and perhaps started slouching. No more that 70 years from then, and we have almost completely lost that stereotype of an "old" lady.
Not having to worry so much about all those thousands of petty little things that you had on your mind during maiden- and also motherhood phase.

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In my cosmology, which is based in part on Jung's Quaternity and in large part on my own observations(the lunar cycle, my own rhythms and so on) there are four key stages; childhood/maidenhood; motherhood; fullness (as I call it for lack of another term) and then the crone. Many women come into their own after menopause and motherhood, and begin to live their own lives, un-related to the incessant needs of others, starting a new career, completing a life goal - these are full, active, and yes, sexual years if we so choose - before the inevitability of advanced old age and the necessary physical limitations therein.
Yes, there is definitely a phase in between motherhood and crone. Fullness is a nice word for it, or perhaps it could be seen as childhood-maiden-motherhood-harvest-crone. The time of harvest/or late harvest is to cherish what's left after the fertile times of motherhood (does not have to necessarily mean that you have to have had children, more of a adjustment into menopause), to sit back and enjoy life with more freedom and all that life experience that is behind perhaps?



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Originally Posted by petrus4 View Post
I have usually heard the fiftieth birthday described as a point at which people scream and cry in absolute emotional agony, because said people often feel as though they haven't really accomplished anything, and now more likely never will. So that is basically what 50 means. It's not yet the time where your life is definitely over, but it is the point at which, if you haven't yet started anything, suicide is probably the most humane course of action.
Yeah, well...
Or some say that their life actually just started after they turned 50. Some things like starting new activities and hobbies really can change people quite drastically. Traveling is a good example.
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Old 11-04-15   #16
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Default Re: Triple Goddess? No, thank you

Oh I forgot to add.

If we would look at it from the perspective of the seasons of nature, having more phases instead of the usual triple goddess, does make sense. We would have:
spring/childhood, summer/maiden, late summer/motherhood, fall/transition - late harvest, winter/crone
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Old 11-04-15   #17
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Default Re: Triple Goddess? No, thank you

I like the quaternity very much, but I think the harvest phase has to mean different things to different people. it might well be the time in which a woman finally starts to write or paint or do something her earlier demands denied her. It might mean a more restful phase, if she is financially secure, or more time for spirit. It should always be open to the individual - I, for one, have never been busier.

I'm just hoping petrus' remark was tongue-in-cheek, if not, it's probably THE most insane thing I've ever read on the Internet - including from dog people.
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Old 11-04-15   #18
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Default Re: Triple Goddess? No, thank you

I found the 'life expectancy' thing sufficiently interesting that when we re-did the 'Gower Churches' trail again last month I spent quite a lot of time looking at gravestones. I could get more accurate figures by looking at parish records but I was there, so I'll just go with the gravestones I could find with birth and death dates both specified[1]...

Average life expectancy for the eighteen hundreds was 38 for women (N=130) and 44 for men (N=210). But the female figures are skewed because a lot of women died in childirth. Many were dead by 25, but if you lived past thirty you were likely to live to 70. The 44 figure for men reflects the kind of work they were doing. It'd be a fascinating project to follow up on paperwork, but I have other things to do first. It gives me a kind of feeling that the original 'crone' was someone who had survived past menopause, could look after grandchildren and pass on their knowledge to the next generation.

I'm a year older than fera', but the reason why I'm not following up the stats is that I have plenty of projects on the go, most of which were started after I was fifty. My community may be abnormal, but, Petrus, I challenge you to come down to my local pub and say 'suicide is probably the most humane course of action'. My wife will even run you to the local A&E but we may need to borrow a tarpaulin to keep the blood off the seats - getting them professionally cleaned is apparently expensive. Amongst a whole load of stuff, we have two inter-related groups there - one designing and building a new type of musical instrument that we'll all be able to play when the arthritis sets in properly, and one composing and learning to play music for it. We're all over fifty (the oldest is 78) and these projects all started after we were fifty.

I do the maths and some of the composing. Jo does the design, Norm builds immaculate instruments and tries not to get uptight every time we change the specs. My wife sings and is learning to play one of the earlier versions. Cheryl composes and is learning to play but confesses that her singing is a profoundly disturbing experience fore everyone concerned. Jo has offered to give her lessons. Steve is translating C12 tablature - when I was in 'acute medical' his contribution to the 'goody bag' I was allowed was two blank manuscript books and some 2B pencils. Emily comes in when she's not on nights because she's never seen anyone do composition before whilst on the cocktail of drugs she'd injected me with. You start to get the picture, Petrus?

blessings
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[1] I can usually be a geek in a new topic even when notionally on holiday.
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Old 11-04-15   #19
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Default Re: Triple Goddess? No, thank you

I find it difficult to locate images of women in the harvest phase; everything related to Witchcraft or Druidry etc is either impossibly young and beautiful or a wizened old woman. Again, we of the mid-life simply don't exist. A few that come close, for me:







Michelle Pfeiffer, fiftysomething, as Hera:



My personal favorite, Cerridwen:

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Old 11-04-15   #20
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Default Re: Triple Goddess? No, thank you

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Originally Posted by ffetcher View Post

Average life expectancy for the eighteen hundreds was 38 for women (N=130) and 44 for men (N=210). But the female figures are skewed because a lot of women died in childirth. Many were dead by 25, but if you lived past thirty you were likely to live to 70. The 44 figure for men reflects the kind of work they were doing. It'd be a fascinating project to follow up on paperwork, but I have other things to do first. It gives me a kind of feeling that the original 'crone' was someone who had survived past menopause, could look after grandchildren and pass on their knowledge to the next generation.
That makes sense, and it also makes sense that these images have to change as life expectancy, and good health into old age, is much more common nowadays.


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I'm a year older than fera', but the reason why I'm not following up the stats is that I have plenty of projects on the go, most of which were started after I was fifty. My community may be abnormal, but, Petrus, I challenge you to come down to my local pub and say 'suicide is probably the most humane course of action'. My wife will even run you to the local A&E but we may need to borrow a tarpaulin to keep the blood off the seats - getting them professionally cleaned is apparently expensive. Amongst a whole load of stuff, we have two inter-related groups there - one designing and building a new type of musical instrument that we'll all be able to play when the arthritis sets in properly, and one composing and learning to play music for it. We're all over fifty (the oldest is 78) and these projects all started after we were fifty.
This is just too funny for words.
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