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Native American Spirituality Exploring Native American Spirituality, Magic and Mythology

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Old 12-23-13   #1
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Default Pre-Clovis

Some reading material:


My opinions:

The bases for the pre clovis claims resides on artifacts found below clovis culture time frames (11,500-13,500 bp).Pre-Clovis theories where ridiculed in the past on the basis of the Clovis first theory, since most scholars believed the Clovis where Americas paleo inhabitants any artifact found deeper than Clovis was denied, avoided, and swept under the rug.

The Younger Dryas cooling episode This layer or mat covers the Clovis-age landscape or surface on which the last remnants of the terminal Pleistocene megafauna are recorded. Most archeologist did not dig deeper than this geological event. How did they expect to find older cultures if they didn't dig deeper?

Finally, sites like The Buttermilk creek complex in Texas, Cactus Hill in Virginia indicated an older Pre Clovis/ Pre younger dryas culture. These sites presented evidence of human inhabitation somewhere around 16,000 to 20,000 years BP in North America. This begs the question, where did Pre-Clovis come from?

In addition, sites found in Monte Verde, Chile indicate a pre-clovis existence as well. How did man get to South America 16,000 years ago? The Pre-Clovis notions poke holes in most all previously presumed theories, it's not likely any one source (ice bridge, South American migration etc..) contributed to the peopling of Americas. The newest trend leans towards several different migration events from several different ancient cultures.

It is my firm belief that some people where already here, others came, more came, ultimately leading to the diversity of the Pre Columbus Americas. Culture exchanges such as stone tool technology and other religious/spiritual concepts where born out of this melting pot, they didn't hinge on one concept as much as they drew from many concepts. Hence the variety of practices, creation/migration stories, languages etc..

Pre-Clovis theories are just now gaining traction, it's not so much that they define what we know any better, in fact the opposite, they illustrate what we don't know. I think secretly most NA's are aware of there diverse backgrounds and laugh at our stupid white man claims. That's why they seem so hostile to bogus assertions made in books purported to represent the NA. Especially when they revolve on the singular notion of existence the white man found so convenient to claim.

Just my thoughts.
"I am wiser than this man, for neither of us appears to know anything great and good; but he fancies he knows something, although he knows nothing; whereas I, as I do not know anything, so I do not fancy I do."~Socrates

Last edited by Rubber_Duckie; 12-23-13 at 06:51 PM. Reason: Added a link
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Old 12-23-13   #2
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Default Re: Pre-Clovis

Now your hitting something I've not read in-depth about for some time now. I tend to agree with the suggestion that we're looking at multiple migration. Even the fact that there might be minor migration periods and major periods with massive numbers for the time frame in question. As to what caused said migrations I'd think probably due to movement of herds for the land based hunter aspects as well as distribution of schools of fish and other shoal type creatures that could be obtained close to shore. Hunt and fish an area out or out grow its capacity and you'll have to move to survive.

If one extrapolates that native peoples from the America's were picked up by the Atlantic current and carried to modern Europe after the Ice Age then it seems logical that something similar probably occurred with parts of the Pacific current which runs down the pacific coastline. Granted the later incidents with the Atlantic current resulted in the people dying before arriving due to the distance. Yet if one considers the notion of a land bridge and an un-iced coastline then it seems logical, to me anyway, that the currents would be closer to shore. Being closer probable that the "Sailor" would have put into a visible shoreline as deep ocean voyages out of site of land until the 14th / 15th century where still pretty

Given that many coastal peoples in archaic Japan (Joman culture comes to mind), Siberia, etc relied heavily upon fishing or sea based food sources as a food source it seems logical that some probably followed the currents & shallow coastal harbors, etc to the best producing waters.

Wish I could find it but I recently read something on a Pre-Clovis find in Texas, Buttermilk creek I think it was. Yet it seemed that the conclusions presented from the find was being received better in support of a pre-Clovis site. Bad part was I do not recall there being any biological material that could be carbon dated so they had to rely upon layering of sediment to get a suggested date. I do recall part of the argument was why was this one being presented as the first confirmation source when Monte Verdi, Chile had already been found and excavated. Sorry don't recall the dates for Chile.

As for existing "Peoples" that I wonder about. From modern genetics we know Neanderthals cross breed with others. I vaguely recall a third strain of humanity that is recorded in the DNA records so it seems possible that some pre-modern human life form may have existed. Granted not highly likely but still a possibility that potentially might answers some of those questions. No evidence that I am aware of to suggest such for sure but such a development seems possible to me.

But as I said its been some time since I really dug into theories and such pertaining to the Clovis and Pre-Clovis peoples.
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Old 12-23-13   #3

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Default Re: Pre-Clovis

Interesting read Rubber Duck
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Old 12-23-13   #4
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Default Re: Pre-Clovis

Dr. Dennis Stanford

Edit: .55-1:10 is the meat of it.

It's a long lecture type, but very eye opening. Dr. Stanford go's into the Solutrean theory which is still debatable. However, he does highlight interesting points against the Clovis first notions. It go's to show how little we truly know about ancient America.

The Pre-Clovis concepts are opening doors that have been closed for a long time. Every day they find something new, it's only a matter of time before they find something organic to carbon date. At the same time a geological event such as the younger dryas is a pretty good time signature. What people are finding NOW is beneath that layer in the "Oldest Dryas" (16,000 to 18,000 BP) which puts inhabitation in America into the same Jōmon time frame MonSno_Leedra mentioned ..

Makes ya wonder!
"I am wiser than this man, for neither of us appears to know anything great and good; but he fancies he knows something, although he knows nothing; whereas I, as I do not know anything, so I do not fancy I do."~Socrates

Last edited by Rubber_Duckie; 12-23-13 at 11:45 PM.
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