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Old 04-09-16   #11
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Default Re: The Green Man

Ahh, but I have to work today, believe me I wish I didn't! CLient follow up and house /animal work. Hopefully tomorrow! If I'm not in traction that is.
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Old 04-10-16   #12
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Default Re: The Green Man

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Originally Posted by MonSno_LeeDra View Post
I think each individuals interpretation is important, especially in the aspect of the mystical connection to it. Yet I think based upon discussions, representations, etc that most will only see the "common" renditions of his imagery. Because the alternates are so few and unspoken of it's hard to consider them.[
This is true of so many aspects of modern "magic" - whitewashed, stripped of all Mystery, reduced to New Age pap...don't you find?


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Figure even the Oak King and Holly King influences are dropped from a lot of modern Wiccan material. So, in my opinion, seekers are taught about the duality of masculine and feminine in the divine but seldom talk about the duality of the seasons. In ritual magic the tides of he year are well entrenched and I can't ever see that changing, but then ritual magic is never going to be mainstream...
I can't comment too much on modern Wicca because it hasn't been my scene for years - but it is hard to imagine it without those aspects.



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Hopefully this doesn't sound wrong when read. I tend to think many have attributed masculine things to the feminine side through misunderstanding or error. It's like is it the masculine that starts the rut and the growing of antlers to mark strength and health or is it the feminine and the beginning of the onset of the fertility period? Are they even separate as actions vice being a duality of actions that compliment each other?

For me they are masculine and feminine actions that compliment each other. One does not happen without the other occurring yet each can and does occur without the presence of the other gender. A Buck will antler whether a Doe is around or not, a Doe will become fertile whether a Buck is present or not.
IMO, there definitely are some problems around the assignation of correspondences... but that really is a big topic. I'm thinking (very quick example of feminine deities like Hekate who can be very ferocious, and then the gentler male deities - Hephaestus comes to mind...ferocity is not exclusive to the male. (This is in Wicca, not in ritual magic where the inverted polarties do a good job iMO of handling all that).




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Yet for some reason it seem's the feminine energies which are normally seen as passive are more noticeable to viewers. Then identified many times in relationship to some male action. We know the female is going into a fertile period by the actions of the male. Growing antlers, courtships and dances, subtle changes in colorations and weight at times. Yet most will probably not notice the changes in the female, consider female rabbits will start tearing out their fur around their neck and chest to create a nest or bed for the birthing. For deer you start to see more lone females where the rest of the year they are a rather tight nit herd with the males being loners or comprising a stag herd of young males.
Oh, not many humans in the First World are anywhere this aware of/observant of nature, MonSno!


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Yet it still falls into the changes in the female action marks the start of changes in the male. Yet I personally think that wrong as it's not really changes in either simply part of the dance and cycle of the masculine and feminine. Yet we mark so much of it based upon fertility cycles vice looking at the full natural cycle and life cycle of the participants. If all you focus upon is the fertility cycle then it's mostly about the feminine in nature in my opinion. Fertility whether it be animal, avian, acquatic, plant to mark cycles which sort of influences us I think into mainly focusing upon the feminine cycle. But incorporating masculine actions into it which hide the deeper cyclic periods as nature shifts back and forth between the patterns but never fully acknowledges one over the other nor better than the other.
I'm not 100% clear on what you mean by this..can you chunk it down a little?




For me, the idea that the female is passive on the outside/active on the inside, and the male vice versa, is dated but at least it conveys something of the complexity of these currents. I'm not expressing myself well here but that's the way my thinking leads...and the natural world is always yin and yang, male and female, Lord and Lady of course, any theology worth thinking about has to honour that.

Just some scattered thoughts, I worked all day again today.
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Old 04-10-16   #13
MonSno_LeeDra
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Default Re: The Green Man

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Originally Posted by feranaja View Post
This is true of so many aspects of modern "magic" - whitewashed, stripped of all Mystery, reduced to New Age pap...don't you find?
Sad to say but very much so from my perspective. From my perspective it's sort of like all the joy, discovery and illusion of the pathway is forsaken in the need to get to the supposed destination. Yet when you loose the journey and ignore it's revelations then you arrive at a different destination than those who embrace the journey vice running for the destination.

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I can't comment too much on modern Wicca because it hasn't been my scene for years - but it is hard to imagine it without those aspects.
I think part of the issue is mostly what I see now days is clearly Neo-Wicca and seldom if ever traditional Wicca. Like I mentioned above the journey and the discussions from it seem to be void of the journey and experiences. It's like Silver was bad enough but it seems, to me anyway, that this newer generation is even less connected to the traditional than that group was.

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IMO, there definitely are some problems around the assignation of correspondences... but that really is a big topic. I'm thinking (very quick example of feminine deities like Hekate who can be very ferocious, and then the gentler male deities - Hephaestus comes to mind...ferocity is not exclusive to the male. (This is in Wicca, not in ritual magic where the inverted polarties do a good job iMO of handling all that).
I think where I see a significant difference is how that ferocious nature is summoned. In that capacity it becomes, to me anyway, pretty clear when you look to nature. A female defending or protecting is far more dangerous in my opinion than a male. Yet her ferocity arises from an inner sense as a response to danger or being encroached upon. Yet for the male it's a different sense of ferocity as is its origin. The male almost might be seen as parading and posturing to suggest a threat or induce fear by his presence. The antlers, the bright colors, the bulging neck, the massive fur about the neck, etc are all signs of virility and suggest a sense of power.

So, to me again, there is a definite sense of masculine and feminine in each yet it's not in a duality sense. In many ways not sure it's even correct to use the example of internal projection from the female and external projection of strength for the male. Mostly because each manifestation of that power, energy, presence or what ever you'd call it is manifested for entirely different reasons.

Yet, to me again, it also goes back to the question of who stimulates whom? Do the males strut because the female has gone into a fertile period or do the females go into a fertile period because the male struts? If it is one over the other than the deeper question I think then becomes what is the deeper question and condition?

It's like look at the seasonal influence upon the mating habits of nearly every creature. The male becomes larger, antlers grow and rutting / strutting begins as the feast period is ending. So the doe is given an image of which are the stronger and more healthy Bucks she can breed with and give better odd's to surviving the lean months. Yet it's also timing as early births and late births also occur yet are they equated to younger or older females? Honestly do not know myself. Yet if seasonal then it's a joint dance and movement more so than condition A develops in one which triggers a reaction in the other.

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Oh, not many humans in the First World are anywhere this aware of/observant of nature, MonSno!
Sadly I agree. Yet even in the depths of the concrete jungle the signs are to be found. Bad part is most will ignore them due to any number of reasons.

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I'm not 100% clear on what you mean by this..can you chunk it down a little?
Mostly suggesting that the signs that trigger things are more than simply fertility driven. That fertility works in conjunction with the seasons and the cycle of the year to induce the conditions so things happen. So the Buck for instance grows antlers not because the female has entered a fertile period but because signs in the season stimulate it to do so. The same applies to the female, she is not stimulated because of the need to breed but because of recognizing the conditions and signs in nature that tell her its the best time to breed.

Quote:
For me, the idea that the female is passive on the outside/active on the inside, and the male vice versa, is dated but at least it conveys something of the complexity of these currents. I'm not expressing myself well here but that's the way my thinking leads...and the natural world is always yin and yang, male and female, Lord and Lady of course, any theology worth thinking about has to honour that.
I agree that as a gauge it is dated. Yet I think the dating is more biased and dated from the way we view the action vice the triggers for those actions. Many times due to evaluating it against a fertility cycle I think which tends to suggest the male is projecting and the female is receptive. We evaluate based upon response versus trigger's, stimulation's and manifesting conditions.

Forgetting, in my opinion, that conditions constantly change responses. Though I am not sure it is an outdated model to suggest energy is masculine and projecting or feminine regarding receptive and internal processed. As long as we understand that male or female as a sex does not apply to the energy that may be displayed, manifested or be the catalyst and / or by product of the stimulation's.

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Just some scattered thoughts, I worked all day again today.
Haven't worked all day but sure wish this darn cold would pass as it's making my life suck at the moment.
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